Real or copy? (Montante, Bastard, Claymore)

celtan · 7th December 2008, 02:40 AM

What do you think, real McCoy or victorian copy?

Manuel Luis

katana · 7th December 2008, 01:55 PM

Hi Manuel,
my first reaction is that it is a Victorian copy....the blade looks very similar to the trade blades that reached North Africa and ended up hilted as Takouba. Understandably it is difficult to be sure from a photograph....so I could be totally wrong.

Do you have access to the sword ?

Regards David

celtan · 7th December 2008, 02:48 PM

Yep! I'm considering buying it. But I need an idea of what's worth, if anything.

Merry Xmas!

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Manuel,
my first reaction is that it is a Victorian copy....the blade looks very similar to the trade blades that reached North Africa and ended up hilted as Takouba. Understandably it is difficult to be sure from a photograph....so I could be totally wrong.

Do you have access to the sword ?

Regards David

kisak · 7th December 2008, 02:53 PM

I'd guess Victorian. The tip looks a bit too "flat" to me, and the bits on the ends of the crossguard looks rather disproportional.

broadaxe · 8th December 2008, 01:14 PM

I would like to support the points brought up by katana & kisak. The crossguard is somehow out of proportions: the cross bars are thin comparing the terminals which look too large at their own. The crossguard is very wide comparing the grip.
An almost identical sword (probably the original, dated to the early 16th century) can be seen in Edged Weapons by Wilkinson, p. 31.

Paul Macdonald · 9th December 2008, 02:06 AM

Hi Folks,

Just to present my own wee observations...the pommel form is very unusual, not what you would expect to see on an original C16th sword (but not so difficult to manufacture with an C18th or C19th metal lathe

)

The grip has a top ring which meets the pommel base, and the grip top diameter is less than the pommel base diameter, where pommels stretching towards the grip invariably meet the grip flush for smoother handling.

The quillions appear to be too thin to be practical for this sword type.

The blade type is unusual for a two handed sword of C16th style. It would not be usual for central fullering to run for the full length of the blade, as a two handed sword blade of this type (long and with a very shallow width taper) should have a good distal taper, which should preclude the need for central fullering after about half the blade length.

This would suggest that this piece would not handle too lightly in the hands and cast a questionable shadow over its practicality.

The blade form (shallow width taper, central triple fullering) and makers mark is identical to a single handed blade that I bought some years ago and hilted as a German Katzbalger. This was a C19th blade made to an earlier style.

I would suggest that this sword is an example of the same.

As a C19th repro of this quality (not bad but not top), I would not suggest that it is too valuable. £150 - £200 tops maybe?

Hope that helps and all the best,

Macdonald

Ed · 9th December 2008, 02:20 AM

The blade looks decidedly African, I even have a mate to it. Altogether it appears too delicate to be authentic.

celtan · 9th December 2008, 02:49 AM

Thanks for all your learned advice, guy. Much appreciated.

Merry Xmas to all!

Manuel Luis

Atlantia · 9th December 2008, 03:42 AM

Hey Manuel,
Can you grab the sword pictured with it? That looks more to my taste! ;-)

I can't add anything on the one in question. I Can't see the handle/hilt/guard being anything other than a repro of one age or another, and the blade at best is an old trade blade, nice but better in a Kaskara where at least it would look at home.

Its a nice enbough piece, but it would have to be priced as a repro, not an original of course.
I could see myself buying it, but at around £100 or so.

All the best
Gene

stekemest · 9th December 2008, 08:54 AM

Besides what has already been mentioned, I have some problems with the blade mark (the crescent). It does not look right for the time if you ask me. I'd also say it's a Victorian copy. Those are sometimes worth a few hundred dollars too, though.
Peter

celtan · 9th December 2008, 02:24 PM

Hi Guys, the adjacent blade is a Judge, Rule, or executioner's sword, and it's being discussed in another thread. The overall impression is that the blade may be legit, but the pommel and cross guard are replacements...

Best

Manuel Luis

Ed · 9th December 2008, 04:39 PM

These are the images of a Taurag-bladded English Officers Hilt sword that was discussed here some ages ago. I think that I was beguiled (at the time) with Burton's report of survivals of Crusader blades (suitably rehilted) among various middle eastern tribes. The consensus, I recall, was that there was a thriving trade between Europe and the mid east.

Anyhoo, here is the best reference that I have at hand:

Briggs, Lloyd Cabot European Blades in Tuareg Swords and Daggers, Journal of the Arms and Armour Society, London 1965, V, 2 37-92.

Ed · 9th December 2008, 05:03 PM

Thinking about it, this is a very versitile blade. You want medieval? You got it! You want Brit Civil War, You got it!! You want ...

Just add hilt and mix well.

celtan · 9th December 2008, 05:43 PM

Ed, you're being mischievous. Santa isn't bringing you that aged Chivas Regal you asked him for, nor the 09' Jag...

I spent a few minutes searching the net for Lithuanian blades to no effect (yes, there's a place called Taurag in Lithuania). So I thought, what do you know? It's european after all !

Then I went back to your post, and I found the Tuareg ref...

What can I say,. Got me!

: )

Let's raise the stakes. I'm throwing you guys this tasty morsel.

Best

Manuel

Ed · 9th December 2008, 09:09 PM

Victorian re-hilted German 16th c. blade?

katana · 9th December 2008, 09:15 PM

....possibly a 1580 Rapier....British

.

Ed · 9th December 2008, 09:33 PM

Cheater

celtan · 9th December 2008, 11:08 PM

The Taurag Trap has been avenged!

No, seriously, you guys think it truly can be late 16th C.? It's gorgeous, I salivate everytime I hold it....

katana · 9th December 2008, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed

Cheater

celtan · 10th December 2008, 12:38 AM

ditto

kisak · 10th December 2008, 01:03 AM

To continue with my rampant guesswork and speculation, I guess the blade could be the real deal, but that hilt looks fishy. Maybe not the oddest I've seen, but nothing I'd dare stamp as authentic on my own.

And while manufacturing dates aren't contagious, the fact that it seems to be in the same batch as the Executioner's Sword and the Bastard isn't exactly a good sign.

Ed · 10th December 2008, 01:15 AM

Frankly, and I mean this in a constructive way, the hilt looks like it belonged to a bouncer in a bordello. An old bordello perhaps, but a bordello nonetheless.

Really.

katana · 10th December 2008, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed

Cheater

Or as Mr Sherlock Holmes has said..."“There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact..."

Who's to say the label on the sword is correct though....

Kind Regards David

ward · 10th December 2008, 04:20 AM

Not my area but waht is the weight on this rapier like?

Marc · 10th December 2008, 10:05 AM

The blade *could* be genuine 16th - 17th c., but better pictures (short of direct inspection) would be needed. For the hilt, my bets go to "modern" (19th-early 20th c.) on stylistic, decorative and construction grounds (I agree with Ed in that there's a certain degree of... "pimp-ness"... in it

)

celtan · 10th December 2008, 02:54 PM

Well, I guess I may have been an English Pimp in a past life, cuz I like the darn thingie...

I'll try to take more pics and weight the items next time I visit.

BTW:

Does anyone know of a mid 19th C. European armourer/s by the initials ISB?

Best

M

Ed · 10th December 2008, 05:18 PM

The blade looks ok to me but, my dear, that hilt.

You know, if it were cheap enough, I'd think about buying it, loosing the hilt and displaying the blade.

celtan · 19th December 2008, 07:26 PM

INSCRIPTIONS:

A. "SI VIS PACEM/PARA BELLUM"
If you wish peace, prepare for war
B. "VERBUM DOMINI / MANET IN AETERNUM"
God's word is eternal (Lutheran Motto)

7th December 2008, 02:40 AM	#1
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Real or copy? (Montante, Bastard, Claymore) What do you think, real McCoy or victorian copy? Manuel Luis

9th December 2008, 09:15 PM	#16
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	....possibly a 1580 Rapier....British . Attached Images

10th December 2008, 12:38 AM	#20
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	ditto Last edited by celtan; 10th December 2008 at 02:49 PM.

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7th December 2008, 01:55 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Manuel, my first reaction is that it is a Victorian copy....the blade looks very similar to the trade blades that reached North Africa and ended up hilted as Takouba. Understandably it is difficult to be sure from a photograph....so I could be totally wrong. Do you have access to the sword ? Regards David

7th December 2008, 02:53 PM	#4
kisak Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Stockholm Posts: 182	I'd guess Victorian. The tip looks a bit too "flat" to me, and the bits on the ends of the crossguard looks rather disproportional.

8th December 2008, 01:14 PM	#5
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 332	I would like to support the points brought up by katana & kisak. The crossguard is somehow out of proportions: the cross bars are thin comparing the terminals which look too large at their own. The crossguard is very wide comparing the grip. An almost identical sword (probably the original, dated to the early 16th century) can be seen in Edged Weapons by Wilkinson, p. 31.

9th December 2008, 02:06 AM	#6
Paul Macdonald Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland Posts: 48	Hi Folks, Just to present my own wee observations...the pommel form is very unusual, not what you would expect to see on an original C16th sword (but not so difficult to manufacture with an C18th or C19th metal lathe ) The grip has a top ring which meets the pommel base, and the grip top diameter is less than the pommel base diameter, where pommels stretching towards the grip invariably meet the grip flush for smoother handling. The quillions appear to be too thin to be practical for this sword type. The blade type is unusual for a two handed sword of C16th style. It would not be usual for central fullering to run for the full length of the blade, as a two handed sword blade of this type (long and with a very shallow width taper) should have a good distal taper, which should preclude the need for central fullering after about half the blade length. This would suggest that this piece would not handle too lightly in the hands and cast a questionable shadow over its practicality. The blade form (shallow width taper, central triple fullering) and makers mark is identical to a single handed blade that I bought some years ago and hilted as a German Katzbalger. This was a C19th blade made to an earlier style. I would suggest that this sword is an example of the same. As a C19th repro of this quality (not bad but not top), I would not suggest that it is too valuable. £150 - £200 tops maybe? Hope that helps and all the best, Macdonald

9th December 2008, 02:20 AM	#7
Ed Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 237	The blade looks decidedly African, I even have a mate to it. Altogether it appears too delicate to be authentic.

9th December 2008, 02:49 AM	#8
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Thanks for all your learned advice, guy. Much appreciated. Merry Xmas to all! Manuel Luis

9th December 2008, 03:42 AM	#9
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hey Manuel, Can you grab the sword pictured with it? That looks more to my taste! ;-) I can't add anything on the one in question. I Can't see the handle/hilt/guard being anything other than a repro of one age or another, and the blade at best is an old trade blade, nice but better in a Kaskara where at least it would look at home. Its a nice enbough piece, but it would have to be priced as a repro, not an original of course. I could see myself buying it, but at around £100 or so. All the best Gene

9th December 2008, 08:54 AM	#10
stekemest Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Heidelberg, Germany Posts: 182	Besides what has already been mentioned, I have some problems with the blade mark (the crescent). It does not look right for the time if you ask me. I'd also say it's a Victorian copy. Those are sometimes worth a few hundred dollars too, though. Peter

9th December 2008, 02:24 PM	#11
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Hi Guys, the adjacent blade is a Judge, Rule, or executioner's sword, and it's being discussed in another thread. The overall impression is that the blade may be legit, but the pommel and cross guard are replacements... Best Manuel Luis

9th December 2008, 04:39 PM	#12
Ed Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 237	These are the images of a Taurag-bladded English Officers Hilt sword that was discussed here some ages ago. I think that I was beguiled (at the time) with Burton's report of survivals of Crusader blades (suitably rehilted) among various middle eastern tribes. The consensus, I recall, was that there was a thriving trade between Europe and the mid east. Anyhoo, here is the best reference that I have at hand: Briggs, Lloyd Cabot European Blades in Tuareg Swords and Daggers, Journal of the Arms and Armour Society, London 1965, V, 2 37-92.

9th December 2008, 05:03 PM	#13
Ed Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 237	Thinking about it, this is a very versitile blade. You want medieval? You got it! You want Brit Civil War, You got it!! You want ... Just add hilt and mix well.

9th December 2008, 05:43 PM	#14
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Ed, you're being mischievous. Santa isn't bringing you that aged Chivas Regal you asked him for, nor the 09' Jag... I spent a few minutes searching the net for Lithuanian blades to no effect (yes, there's a place called Taurag in Lithuania). So I thought, what do you know? It's european after all ! Then I went back to your post, and I found the Tuareg ref... What can I say,. Got me! : ) Let's raise the stakes. I'm throwing you guys this tasty morsel. Best Manuel

9th December 2008, 09:09 PM	#15
Ed Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 237	Victorian re-hilted German 16th c. blade?

9th December 2008, 09:33 PM	#17
Ed Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 237	Cheater

9th December 2008, 11:08 PM	#18
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	The Taurag Trap has been avenged! No, seriously, you guys think it truly can be late 16th C.? It's gorgeous, I salivate everytime I hold it....

10th December 2008, 01:03 AM	#21
kisak Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Stockholm Posts: 182	To continue with my rampant guesswork and speculation, I guess the blade could be the real deal, but that hilt looks fishy. Maybe not the oddest I've seen, but nothing I'd dare stamp as authentic on my own. And while manufacturing dates aren't contagious, the fact that it seems to be in the same batch as the Executioner's Sword and the Bastard isn't exactly a good sign.

10th December 2008, 01:15 AM	#22
Ed Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 237	Frankly, and I mean this in a constructive way, the hilt looks like it belonged to a bouncer in a bordello. An old bordello perhaps, but a bordello nonetheless. Really.

10th December 2008, 04:20 AM	#24
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Not my area but waht is the weight on this rapier like?

10th December 2008, 10:05 AM	#25
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	The blade could be genuine 16th - 17th c., but better pictures (short of direct inspection) would be needed. For the hilt, my bets go to "modern" (19th-early 20th c.) on stylistic, decorative and construction grounds (I agree with Ed in that there's a certain degree of... "pimp-ness"... in it )

10th December 2008, 02:54 PM	#26
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Well, I guess I may have been an English Pimp in a past life, cuz I like the darn thingie... I'll try to take more pics and weight the items next time I visit. BTW: Does anyone know of a mid 19th C. European armourer/s by the initials ISB? Best M

10th December 2008, 05:18 PM	#27
Ed Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 237	The blade looks ok to me but, my dear, that hilt. You know, if it were cheap enough, I'd think about buying it, loosing the hilt and displaying the blade.

19th December 2008, 07:26 PM	#28
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	INSCRIPTIONS: A. "SI VIS PACEM/PARA BELLUM" If you wish peace, prepare for war B. "VERBUM DOMINI / MANET IN AETERNUM" God's word is eternal (Lutheran Motto)