Another {magic/blessed} African stick?

Tim Simmons · 3rd August 2007, 09:49 PM

Some might find this sort of thing stretching the boundaries. To me it is perfectly reasonable to include this sort of thing here on this weapons forum. Civil weapons, status symbols derived as mentioned before from martial weapons like mace and club. Also magic weapons? This stick arrived today. As you can see it has not been made specifically to make contact with the ground. Finished with a steel thimble and some brass wire. What I like most of all is the magic substance, blessing indeed magic blessing stuck on it. This makes me think of a central to west African origin. The main stick is inserted into the knop, it is possible that magic was put in there too?

katana · 3rd August 2007, 10:57 PM

Certainly a 'trick stick'......a nice piece Tim

Lew · 3rd August 2007, 11:57 PM

Tim

Stop trying to corner the Afican stick market

. Leave some for your friends on the other side of the pond

. BTW nice stick!

Lew

Tim Simmons · 5th August 2007, 08:50 PM

For those of you with enquiring minds. I have a strong feeling that what you look at here is a system of magic squares possibly used in divination or other magic. It could be locally based or even Islamic, this would back my suspicion of a West Africa origin and the blessing. To gain a slight insight one could google " magic squares Africa"

Tim Simmons · 5th August 2007, 09:02 PM

A system related to Numerology which I believe is quite common in some Islamic countries.

Tim Simmons · 5th August 2007, 09:25 PM

Interesting views. I would say it is almost certain Juju.

http://www.albalagh.net/qa/astrology_numerology.shtml

Tim Simmons · 6th August 2007, 11:26 AM

More on this theme. Very interesting?

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0361-7882(1975)8%3C49%3AAC%3E2.0.CO%3B2-W

There has been questions on this forum many times about dot or checkered designs and patterns including dots engraved on blades, I do wonder that most of those questions are answered?

Tim Simmons · 6th August 2007, 09:43 PM

I have bought the book mentioned in the last link. I do not know why it did not show up. Perhaps there may be more to add in a few days.

Tim Simmons · 9th August 2007, 08:46 PM

i received the book today, there is so much to take in. A large part of this book is available here http://www.ethnomath.org/resources/zaslavsky1999.pdf

Jim McDougall · 9th August 2007, 10:21 PM

Hi Tim,
I thought I would join in here since I am indeed one of those 'inquiring minds'

and I enjoy researching weapons -and- associated items which often bring in clues and perspective in studying the weapons. Over the years we have learned that expanding our horizons a bit is definitely productive in our studies.

It seems that in African weaponry, and material culture, processional and ceremonial items are extremely important, so I think you are on track with your observations on this stick. Interesting observations on the decoration also. The importance of 'magic' and superstition in West Africa, particularly in Vodun is of course well known (not suggesting the stick is associated at this point).

All the best,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 10th August 2007, 08:08 AM

I was thinking further than this stick which was just a catalyst to explore the possible numerology and magic square inspired motifs and patterns on weapons from peoples under Islamic influence.

Tim Simmons · 10th August 2007, 10:56 AM

I think there may be some confusion over Shongo and Songye. I have not given the full context but it is plain to see. The patterns could have more significance than a children's game. Possibly tapping into a kind of natural rhythm or magic. The pattern on the blade is the same as the one ringed. As for the stick it could be a kind of official counting or tally stick. The magic substance marking it as special and fit for office?

Tim Simmons · 12th August 2007, 10:22 AM

One last snippet about the stick not wanting to drift to far from weapons.

Jim McDougall · 12th August 2007, 10:29 PM

Hi Tim,
I wanted to thank you for posting this stick as well as for the excellent material you have posted in followup and research! I have always been intrigued by the symbolism found in the motif, markings, decorations and shapes in not only weapons but material culture. I am actually kind of surprised at the lack of response or observations from others on this thread since the subject matter is often key to ethnographic weapon study.

As you have shown with the material you have posted, numerology is strongly apparant in African symbolism and culture, of course much as in most other cultures. As you have mentioned there have been many discussions concerning numeric marks and sequenced material on weapons motif, such as the trimurti or three dots on Indian weapons, the seven stars on Chinese and so on. European blades, especially during 17th and 18th centuries were wrought with cabalistic and numeric symbolism, and it seems that numerics were often keyed to certain Masonic lore. I know that in certain design in hilt elements on British swords the numeric five was key.

In West African culture, as I am inclined to agree with you as the origin of this stick, another fascinating element of the culture based in degree on numerics, was the 'talking of the drums'. The messages had I believe been based on numeric beat sequences. Whether or not this applies here I am not sure, but thought it was worthy of note.

Thanks again very much Tim, for sharing the information and the chance to learn a little more on this interesting item.

All the best,
Jim

Luc LEFEBVRE · 13th August 2007, 11:47 PM

Hi Tim,
Very interesting subject !
Look at the first page of this pdf:
http://www.mathsworld.com.au/fileadm...TRB_Task15.pdf

Luc

Tim Simmons · 14th August 2007, 07:43 PM

Thanks Luc that is great, very helpful. So shongo is the name of the game/process. Piece by piece we move forward.

3rd August 2007, 09:49 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Another {magic/blessed} African stick? Some might find this sort of thing stretching the boundaries. To me it is perfectly reasonable to include this sort of thing here on this weapons forum. Civil weapons, status symbols derived as mentioned before from martial weapons like mace and club. Also magic weapons? This stick arrived today. As you can see it has not been made specifically to make contact with the ground. Finished with a steel thimble and some brass wire. What I like most of all is the magic substance, blessing indeed magic blessing stuck on it. This makes me think of a central to west African origin. The main stick is inserted into the knop, it is possible that magic was put in there too? Last edited by Tim Simmons; 4th August 2007 at 12:15 PM. Reason: slurred speach

5th August 2007, 09:25 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	From the JUJU man Interesting views. I would say it is almost certain Juju. http://www.albalagh.net/qa/astrology_numerology.shtml

10th August 2007, 10:56 AM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Bingo! I think there may be some confusion over Shongo and Songye. I have not given the full context but it is plain to see. The patterns could have more significance than a children's game. Possibly tapping into a kind of natural rhythm or magic. The pattern on the blade is the same as the one ringed. As for the stick it could be a kind of official counting or tally stick. The magic substance marking it as special and fit for office?

12th August 2007, 10:22 AM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Finally One last snippet about the stick not wanting to drift to far from weapons.

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3rd August 2007, 10:57 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Certainly a 'trick stick'......a nice piece Tim

3rd August 2007, 11:57 PM	#3
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Tim Stop trying to corner the Afican stick market . Leave some for your friends on the other side of the pond . BTW nice stick! Lew

5th August 2007, 08:50 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	For those of you with enquiring minds. I have a strong feeling that what you look at here is a system of magic squares possibly used in divination or other magic. It could be locally based or even Islamic, this would back my suspicion of a West Africa origin and the blessing. To gain a slight insight one could google " magic squares Africa"

5th August 2007, 09:02 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	A system related to Numerology which I believe is quite common in some Islamic countries.

6th August 2007, 11:26 AM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	More on this theme. Very interesting? http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0361-7882(1975)8%3C49%3AAC%3E2.0.CO%3B2-W There has been questions on this forum many times about dot or checkered designs and patterns including dots engraved on blades, I do wonder that most of those questions are answered?

6th August 2007, 09:43 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I have bought the book mentioned in the last link. I do not know why it did not show up. Perhaps there may be more to add in a few days.

9th August 2007, 08:46 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	i received the book today, there is so much to take in. A large part of this book is available here http://www.ethnomath.org/resources/zaslavsky1999.pdf

9th August 2007, 10:21 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Tim, I thought I would join in here since I am indeed one of those 'inquiring minds' and I enjoy researching weapons -and- associated items which often bring in clues and perspective in studying the weapons. Over the years we have learned that expanding our horizons a bit is definitely productive in our studies. It seems that in African weaponry, and material culture, processional and ceremonial items are extremely important, so I think you are on track with your observations on this stick. Interesting observations on the decoration also. The importance of 'magic' and superstition in West Africa, particularly in Vodun is of course well known (not suggesting the stick is associated at this point). All the best, Jim

10th August 2007, 08:08 AM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I was thinking further than this stick which was just a catalyst to explore the possible numerology and magic square inspired motifs and patterns on weapons from peoples under Islamic influence.

12th August 2007, 10:29 PM	#14
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Tim, I wanted to thank you for posting this stick as well as for the excellent material you have posted in followup and research! I have always been intrigued by the symbolism found in the motif, markings, decorations and shapes in not only weapons but material culture. I am actually kind of surprised at the lack of response or observations from others on this thread since the subject matter is often key to ethnographic weapon study. As you have shown with the material you have posted, numerology is strongly apparant in African symbolism and culture, of course much as in most other cultures. As you have mentioned there have been many discussions concerning numeric marks and sequenced material on weapons motif, such as the trimurti or three dots on Indian weapons, the seven stars on Chinese and so on. European blades, especially during 17th and 18th centuries were wrought with cabalistic and numeric symbolism, and it seems that numerics were often keyed to certain Masonic lore. I know that in certain design in hilt elements on British swords the numeric five was key. In West African culture, as I am inclined to agree with you as the origin of this stick, another fascinating element of the culture based in degree on numerics, was the 'talking of the drums'. The messages had I believe been based on numeric beat sequences. Whether or not this applies here I am not sure, but thought it was worthy of note. Thanks again very much Tim, for sharing the information and the chance to learn a little more on this interesting item. All the best, Jim

13th August 2007, 11:47 PM	#15
Luc LEFEBVRE Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: France Posts: 472	Hi Tim, Very interesting subject ! Look at the first page of this pdf: http://www.mathsworld.com.au/fileadm...TRB_Task15.pdf Luc

14th August 2007, 07:43 PM	#16
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Thanks Luc that is great, very helpful. So shongo is the name of the game/process. Piece by piece we move forward.