keris and spirit

[Raden Usman Djogja]

I would like to share, discuss and ask your opinion regarding spirit and keris.
Some people believe that the spirit lay in a keris. I do not want to raise questions on it (exactly). Something exists because someone beleives.

What I want to share is based on my own experiences. Firstly, I have met with uncountable person who posses keris. Most of them had spiritual stories according to their kerises.

Secondly, I have some kerises. Whenever meeting with someone who felt having sixth sense, sometimes, I showed him/her one of my kerises, then, listening his/her opinion. Case by case. In general, they agreed that there was something inside. However, in detail, their explanations varied.

I tried to get my own explanation on it without doubting their words. Someday, when I turned on cd player, suddently, I realized that by using cd or dvd everyone could listen songs or watch films (lively). However, nobody believes there is a spirit inside cd or dvd.

I just imagine that keris is as cd/dvd and a person who posseses the sixth sense is cd/dvd player.

[A. G. Maisey]

G'day Raden.

I am not Javanese. I am a 66 year old Australian, a risk and audit professional, and strongly nationalistic.

I also have studied the art, history, society and culture of Jawa for over 50 years, I have studied the keris specifically for almost as long, I have spent time in Jawa most years since the 1960's, my wife is from Jawa and I am the pupil of Empu Suparman Supawijaya (Alm.)

I will not present an opinion in the matter you have raised, but I will briefly outline several situations for your consideration.

My son-in-law is from an old Solo priyayi family.His brother-in-law is an engineer, recently retired. My son-in-law's sister died immediately after her husband retired. The husband then searched around for something to fill his time, and he discovered keris. Prior to this he had shown no interest at all in keris.He joined a keris discussion club, and within the space of about 7 or 8 years has put together a collection of about 60 or so keris.He has these keris sorted into two classifications:- one lot of keris were previously owned by kyai-kyai, the other lot of keris were previously owned by pangeran-pangeran. He discovered who had previously owned these keris by meditation and dreaming. A few of these keris contain powerful entities which assist him in various ways. Again, the existence of these entities was revealed by meditation and dreaming.It is of interest to note that several of the keris that have previously belonged to kyai, or pangeran, or that contain powerful entities, are current era production from Madura.

Over the years I have been given a number of keris. Several of these keris were given to me when I agreed to accept them from the previous owners after they had been advised to get rid of these keris because they were causing misfortune , or were evil. In one case several violent deaths were attributed to one of these keris, in another case several failed businesses were attributed to the keris. I think the number of "evil" keris that I currently hold is somewhere in the order of 8 or 10 keris. I have never suffered any misfortunes or ill luck during the period I have held these keris, that I could not put down to my own stupidity, or lack of preparation and planning.

I know of two instances of keris that were bought in a normal market transaction by a dukun (actually two separate dukuns) and that after suitable preparation of a provenance in one case, and a stage setting in the other were onsold to the dukuns' clients as powerful talismans. Until today one of the people who recieved this powerful keris still has absolute faith in the power of this keris to protect his house from misfortune.

I have attended an event in company with a number of Javanese people where a man changed himself into a tiger. All the Javanese people saw this happen. I only saw a man who began to behave like a tiger. It was explained to me that I could not see the tiger because the spirit of the tiger did not want to reveal itself to me.

Now, on the other hand I have heard a toke talking when people with me heard only the sound of the toke.

I have had some keris and tombak given to me after a woman was visited by her dead husband in a dream, told where to find these keris and tombak and how to dispose of them.

I know of instances where somebody has known of things happening in another place, and told of it, long before finding out that those things did in fact happen.

I am not a non-believer in the paranormal, but in any case where it appears that something paranormal does exist it is perhaps as well to consider all factors associated with this paranormal event before accepting that the event has been generated by factors or elements that cannot be traced to a human source.

[Michel]

Hi Raden,
I am a Swiss engineer who lived for a few years in Malaysia and Thailand and traveled in the countries around. I am collecting kris and other Asian Edge weapons. I am nowhere close to Alan in terms of knowledge about kris but I have lived an experience that still puzzle me with one of my kris.
Having returned to Switzerland at my retirement, we bought a house build in 1721 in a local village. Old houses are usually well situated with little or no influence of the underground water system that can affect your sleeping pattern. Having difficulties in sleeping, my wife and I called a geobiologist of the local Polytechnic University to measure, with recognized instruments, the possible underwater stream and the so called Hartmann network. (One should not be sleeping with a crossing of the network on the beds. So at least goes the theory !) He came, made his measures, made his drawings, went through all rooms, measuring and drawing. In my office are stored in an Indonesian basket about 50 krisses. He was turning and turning in this office and said: there is en "entity" in this room that is bothering me and my measures.
So I asked : What is an entity ? Where is it ? Why does it trouble your measures ?
He answered : I feel a very powerful presence somewhere in this room that bother me but not my instruments.
And he went towards my krisses and asked : what is this ? He had never seen a kris before.
So I took the krisses one after the other and he said : no, no , not this one, until I took one of the first kris I bought in Kuala Lumpur, not very nice, nothing special, it is traditional sumatra blade and Palembang sheath and grip, and said: this is it, very powerful, I can feel the entity irradiating at 4 meter distance.
So I asked: good , bad, what does it do ? I have never felt anything special about that kris !
He would not answer and said simply : do not play with it, I will take care of this entity and divert its force.
I paid him what I owed him and we never saw him again. My kris is sleeping with all my other edge weapons and neither my self nor anybody else could identify this kris as special or feel anything about it.
I think that people, like myself, who have been educated in a very technical and materialistic world do not have enough sensitivity to feel anything that we cannot see or measure and we keep seeing people behaving like tigers where others will really see tigers (As Alan explained)
What still puzzles me is that an engineer, trained and educated in Switzerland, not knowing the existence of kris, could come in my home and point to one of them and tell me that weapon has a difference, it has an entity (whateve it means).
In Africa, my helpers could hear and see many things I could not. Were these things real ?
What I cannot see and measure does not bothers me.
However, I cannot measure and see the thoughts of others, but they can bother me !!

[A. G. Maisey]

I can give you a parrallel story.

My wife's uncle was a "spiritual advisor" to President Sukarno, and when Sukarno was replaced, President Suharto then relied upon his services. He was a paranormal who could distant view, who made predictions that had a fairly high success rate , and he gave advice as to the best time and place to undertake various activities. He was a strange little man. Looked something like a frog, and in his house he had a "power room", that was full of keris and paintings of himself. He did have enormous presence and force of personality, and there are a lot of stories in the family about some of the things he did, such as facing down an entire battle group of insurgents during the struggle for freedom, insurgents who had just been on a murder rampage, and telling them to go home and leave his neighbourhood alone. Apparently they dispersed and all shuffled off in different directions as if they did not know what they were doing.

Anyway, about 20 years ago Uncle Jan visited us in Australia, and naturally we spent time going through my collection. When he handled one particular keris he could not hold it and threw it to the floor yelling "panas, panas, panas" (panas=hot). He then proceeded to direct me to get it out of the house and get rid of it because it was more evil than he could talk about.

Now the peculiar thing is this:- some time before this incident I was living in a different house and was visited by a Hungarian gentleman who was a psychic and who had a record for doing things like find the bodies of murdered people. He had never seen a keris before seeing mine, and he had no idea what they were. When he handled the keris that Uncle Jan had handled some years later, it flew from his hands and hit the opposite wall. He immediately left the room, would not touch that keris again and requested that I take the keris out of the house while he was there. He would not talk about what he felt.

When I brought this keris into my house for the first time there is a possibility that it moved from where I believe I placed it to a different place on the floor.

I still have this keris, I feel absolutely nothing from it, in fact, I rather like it, it not a keris that I would ever pass on to somebody else.

During my life I have had custody of literally thousands of keris, and I have handled many thousands more. I have never, ever had any sort of unpleasant feeling from a keris, but I sometimes have had a warm, comfortable feeling when handling a keris.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Thank you, Alan & Michel, for sharing stories and experiences. To me, your stories broden my knowledge of keris.

Another story I would like to share. In 2005, I visited Empu Djeno in Yogyakarta. Some people believed that he was the last Empu left in the modern Yogyakarta. At that time, I ordered him to make a keris for me. Expected, that keris would be finished up at the end of the year 2008. Unfortunately, few months ago, I got bad news that Empu Djeno passed away. Now, nothing I can do for knowing whether the keris has finished or not, because, at this moment, I live in Africa.

Even till now, I am still eager to find a small meteorite for keris material. Friends, can you inform me where I can get a genuine meteorite.

Alan, as a pupil of late Empu Suparman, would you please to share your experiences in making a keris, especially, the untold ritual process? Thank you in advance.

[A. G. Maisey]

Forgive me Raden, but I do not think that I can comply with your request.

The physical process of making a keris is well documented, and I do not think that my repetition of it would serve any purpose, however if you have any specific queries on any particular part of the process, I am willing to try to answer your specific question.

Regarding ritual and mental preparation, I would prefer not to make any comment at all. I am sure that if you reflect upon this you will understand why.

[kai]

Hello Raden,

Even till now, I am still eager to find a small meteorite for keris material. Friends, can you inform me where I can get a genuine meteorite.

Obtaining meteorite of the right quality is pretty easy these days. Once you know what you need exactly, just check ebay/etc. and your bring your wallet.

However, the major problem will likely be to find a skilled pandai keris who is able and willing to work with meteorite material...

I'd recommend to check out old threads on this forum like this one:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2033

Use the search function:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/search.php?

Don't forget to also tap the old forum:
http://www.vikingsword.com/cgi-bin/s...ntro&default=1

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001122.html

Regards,
Kai

[David]

Iron/nickel meteorite is readily available. I was just at a Gem & Mineral show this past weekend and the going rate seemed to be somewhere around .32 cents a gram. That's about $143 USD a pound. I have no idea just how much material you would need to create a keris with all meteorite pamor, but it wouldn't be too outrageous. However...Kai makes a good point. Finding a skilled keris smith who could work the material correctly might be more difficult.
Raden, i believe that even in 2005 most if not all of the work was being done by Empu Djeno's apprentices, with him merely supervising. It is very possible that your keris is still in process. You might want to try to make contact to find out. I assume that if you ordered a keris that some money must have changed hands.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

David, Alan & Kai

Let me express happiness before continuing the discussion. This morning, finally, I got the cell number of Mr. Sungkowo, a foster son of Empu Djeno. He informed me that my commisioned keris had finished before Empu Djeno passed away. He will deliver this commisioned keris to my house in Yogyakarta tomorrow morning. Simply, I am very happy to know about it.

Alan, your comments have very deep meanings. Okay, I am going to contemplate to grasp what exactly messages you want to deliver.

Kai, I have open threads you reccomended. Sigh... long, but fruitful. Thank you.

David, yes, you are right. Considering his age dan health, Empu Djeno said that he would be assisted by apprentices, especially his foster son, Sungkowo. The main role of Empu Djeno is in supervision, in final steps and, most important for me, in ritual aspects. I agreed with those preconditions.

According to meteorite, the long threads I read (recommended by Kai) has opened broder my knowlegde of keris. However, I am still interested to find meteorite which is possibly used as material for keris. Do you think the meteorite you saw past weekend is "the good" one? One pound is equivalent to how many grams? It is said that to make a kris need around 200 grams. Moreover, instead of using single source of meteorite, perhaps it will be wiser to use two or more sources. Even, now I don't know to whom I can commision
a very fine "court" keris.

[David]

If i recall correctly there are approximately 28 grams in an ounce and there are 16 ounces in in a pound. 2.2 pounds equals a kilogram. I am sure there must be a simple conversion equation for this.
At .32 cents a gram a 200 gram meteorite would only be about $64 USD so that's not really that bad is 200 grams is all you need. I don't know for sure if the type of meteorite i saw this past weekend is ideal for pamor, but it was very dense and highly magnetic.
You can easily find it of eBay, but i am afraid you won't find any Pandai there.

[kai]

Hello Raden,

finally, I got the cell number of Mr. Sungkowo, a foster son of Empu Djeno. He informed me that my commisioned keris had finished before Empu Djeno passed away. He will deliver this commisioned keris to my house in Yogyakarta tomorrow morning.

Congratulations!

I am still interested to find meteorite which is possibly used as material for keris. Do you think the meteorite you saw past weekend is "the good" one? One pound is equivalent to how many grams? It is said that to make a kris need around 200 grams. Moreover, instead of using single source of meteorite, perhaps it will be wiser to use two or more sources.

I certainly didn't want to discourage you!

Most meteorites found are small, so you'll most likely have to get a bunch.

You'll want meteorites with a high nickel content. If you know the area it has been collected from, you can search for a published analysis (most meteorites are bits and pieces from larger "mother meteorites" which helps to extrapolate).

Solyom & Solyom mention 50g pure nickel used for their kris. Of course, the content in meteorites is lower and they may possibly need to be forged together with iron and almost certainly extensively refined by repeated forging to obtain malleable metal for pamor work, so you'll need to account for considerable loss of material before the actual blade can be worked on...

BTW, some modern knife makers have also experimented with meteorites as material AFAIK. An Internet search may give you additional hints to avoid possible pit-falls, etc.

Even, now I don't know to whom I can commision
a very fine "court" keris.

Am I correct to assume that Mr. Sungkowo will have received extensive teachings also in the mystical/ritual aspects during Empu Djeno's last years?

Maybe Alan can offer some more suggestions?

Regards,
Kai

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Friends,

I got a private message. Perhaps, this message was from one of you. I am afraid I can not open it. So, would you please to reemail me through this following email address: oosmaand@yahoo.com. Thank you.

Kai, firstly thank you. Secondly, of course, meteorites will be used only as a tiny part of Keris. My concern is, at least, there will be extraterrestrial content. Even, because of lack of technology, the empu/Smith cannot forge it, then becoming "pamor mungul", it doesn' matter for me.

I have never bought anything through eBay. Is it difficult? Can I pay through Western Union? Now, I don't even have a bank account in Africa. I save money "uder the pillow". Yes, this is Africa. But I enjoy the rest. And, in which eBay, where can I get good quality and reasonable price of meteorite?

As a know, your assumption is right. Smith/Empu Djeno said that he had transferred most of his knowledge to Sungkowo. However, I have never met personally with "Smith" Sungkowo. Morever, I do not see his fully own creation, either. Perhaps, for my own collection, I am quite selective. Usually, I don't buy unstandard Keris such as "nerjang landep, pegat wojo, tugel pesi (does anyone give english translation for these terms, please? I want to learn English, too)"

David, please give me the eBay address of the dense and highly magnetic meteorite you mentioned. Thank you.

[pakana]

Hello dear kerislovers,

First, I was happy to read the new thread by Raden.Most threads in this forum deal with the technical aspect of keris, and very few about the mystical one.Even when I post a question about that matter, no one bothers to reply!!

Of course this is a forum that the major part of the people that participate are westerners, and us westerners have a more realistic approach in spiritual matters, comparing with the Eastern people. I can understand that because my country Greece is at the middle point between West and East. So we have an attitude very pragmatic, and at the same time metaphisical

Maybe a lot of people here afraid to put down their experiences in the mystical side of keris, with the fear of maybe be misunderstood and laughed of. Or maybe they DO have incidents assosiated with keris, but they refuse to share because of some oath or something.

But I think that it is wrong to separate the pragmatic and the mystical side of keris, because these are one. Don't forget that keris were used more as a ritual object, and less as a stabing weapon.

George

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by Raden Usman Djogja

David, please give me the eBay address of the dense and highly magnetic meteorite you mentioned. Thank you.

eBay USA: http://www.ebay.com/

You can search "canyon diablo". This is an iron meteorite.

Info about this meteorite:
http://www.alaska.net/~meteor/CDinfo.htm

[ganjawulung]

Would you mind if I join the "mysticism sharing", Raden?

There is a good book I've read on it (not finished yet), "Mysticism in Java", written by an anthropologist Niels Mulder (2005). Although in English, it is published by an Indonesian publisher, Kanisius in Yogyakarta (2005).

This not a promotion of that book, of course. I just want to share with you all.. This book is about an understanding of Javanese mysticism, and the ethics and patterns of thought that stem from it. It is esential to fathom the public discourse in Indonesia. Why Javanese? Because the Javanese form by far the largest ethnic group of the island nation (there are around 30.000 islands in Indonesia). The Javanese -- according to Niels Mulder -- are the dominating force in politics and national culture, and their ideas and beliefs from the essence of Indonesian ideology. In this book, Niels Mulder analyses the old heritage, and demonstrates its relationships with the current effort to create a national ideology and identity.

Dr Niels Mulder is not new to Indonesian. He is an independent anthropologist who conducted field research in Indonesia in the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s. Among his books are, "Inside Indonesian Society: Cultural Change in Java", and also, "Inside Southeast Asia: Religion, Everyday Life, Cultural Change. He wrote also "Inside Thai Society: An Interpretation of Everyday Life.

Mulder's style of writing is entertaining. Thus, it makes his books easily accessible to anyone interested in the working of South-east Asian Society.

And this very book on Mysticism in Java, is not expensive. Available in almost big book stores in Indonesia such as Gramedia, or Gunung Agung. It cost only Rp 35.000, or about 3,5 euro.

I said to you once again, this is not a promotion. Or even an advertorial...

[Alam Shah]

Raden if you could find a smith who is willing to work with the meteorite materials, let us know. I have 3 different types of meteorite which can be used for a single keris blade.

Some considerations that I have for making the blade is trusting the smith, (with my meteorites). Unless, I'm there to witness the blade making process, there is a concern that the meteorite might not actually be used on my blade.

Besides this, the outcome of the pamor and finishing on the blade...hmmm...

Do let us know your progress...

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Ganjawulung. Let you join the discussion with honors, Sir. The title of the book you have been reading is very provocative using term Java rather than Indonesia. But anyway, the writer must have a strong reason. I will read that book as soon as I get it. In which part, does mysticism differ with religion since none see the shape of God? Yes, all we see God through His existence. When we feel His presence, who give an authority to claim that my way is religious while other way is mysticiuos or paganious. I am afraid that God himself doesn give an authority to other entities to make a claim. Only us, as human being, feel that God has trusted us to make such judgment.

Alam Shah. This morning (GMT) or afternoon (GMT+7/Indonesia), I called Smith Sungkowo. He has already sent my comissioned keris to my parents' home at 10.00 GMT+7. During discussion, he said that he continued what late Smith Djeno did as Empu/Smith Keris. Now, he is making a keris comissioned by Malay (not mentioned clearly who). I don't know the outcome of my comissioned keris yet. Even not watching yet, I enjoy my feeling that, since now, I have a keris which made for me personally. It is very very very unique feeling. Perhaps, one of kerislovers, here, have ever had same feeling like me right now?

As I know, the late Smith Djeno made one or two keris(es) comissioned by the late Hamengkubowono IX. At that time, he used Prambanan meteorite. If at that time, Sungkowo involved as panjak/apprentice, so logically, he has an experience to deal with meteorite. Nevertheless, it is not a guarantee that he will be able to do by his own ability without supervised by late Smith Djeno. Perhaps, you can ask directly to him according this matter.

Alam, I have checked eBay. Unfortunately, the is no Senegal in eBay list. I dont have local bank account, either.

[A. G. Maisey]

In Jawa, meteorites were welded for use as keris pamor by making a package of small pieces wrapped in iron, welding the meteorites into the iron, and then repeatedly folding and welding the iron with the meteorite pieces in it, thus removing the impurities.This produced the base material which could then be used with more iron, or without, for the pamor.

I do not know of any current era keris makers who have welded meteoritic material to make pamor material.

Some years ago I welded some meteoritic material to produce a solid ingot of meteoritic material. I did not incorporate it into iron prior to welding it, but welded the small pieces of meteoritic material together, and then repeatedly folded and rewelded these to produce a solid, clean piece of pure meteoritic material. This was passed to a maker in Surakarta to produce a keris using this as pamor material. I was dissatisfied with this keris and it was sold to (I believe) the Ambassador for Venezuela to Indonesia. There was sufficient material for a second keris, and with this second keris I worked more closely with the maker, and a satisfactory blade was produced.

It would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to make a piece of pamor material exclusively of meteoritic material, in the usual type of forge used in Jawa.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

There was sufficient material for a second keris, and with this second keris I worked more closely with the maker, and a satisfactory blade was produced.

Alan,
Based on your opinion, is the pamor used meteorite different (visually) from pamor used non-meteorite materials?

Ooh... lucky you having opportunities to make those workings/experiments.

Guys, do you have any idea what I should do if I want to buy something trough eBay while there is no PayPal around here?

Pararel with this thread, there is hot discussions about pamor rojogundolo. I have kerises which claimed as rojogundolos (one is Kiai Rojosònô [sònô=dog] and another one is Kiai Gundolobajang [bajang=inperfect fetus?]. Actually, I open to share pictures of mine but getting a problem not know how to upload.

Us

[David]

Raden, to upload images is fairly easy. Just beneath your "Reply" box is an area for "Additional Options". The second one of those says "Manage Attachments". Click on that and follow through. It shpould give you the ability to upload any image on your desktop.

And accessing you "Private messages" should be even easier. Go to the top of the page. In the first box, just below the Vikingsword heading there is a thin box that runs the length of the page. On the far right in that box is the private message link that should take you to your messages.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

David

wow... thank you for helping me. Now, I can open 2 personal messages. Hopefully, soon I can upload photos.

I plan to take picture this weekend, either saturday or sunday and send on monday. Here, too many times, internetline has troble during weekend. I dont know why accessing internet in the office much faster than at home. Hmm... I am just a blind user.

one more time, thank you David

Usman

[Raden Usman Djogja]

dear all krislovers,

Thank God, fortunately, now, I still leave Kiai Gundolobajang in my officeroom. Hmm... sometimes, I bring one of my "Wesi Aji" (whats translation in English? help me please) to the office. During lunchbreak, I watch it, especially, whenever I feel homesick.

Yupe, I just took picture and uploaded it

Okay, I open to hear your comments, guys.

Additional information (if I am not mistaken): shape tilam upih, period pajajaran.

Usman

[A. G. Maisey]

Raden, I'm sorry, but I know absolutely nothing about meteorites. The meteoritic material I used came from a very big, well known American meteorite---Arizona or Colorado or somewhere like that. It was a lot of very small pieces, and it was very, very expensive, I think much more expensive than this stuff is now, as with meteoritic material , the market seems to have opened up.

My understanding of the current situation is that there is presently no problem at all in getting whatever one may need in the way of meteoritic material.

Once the inside of the meteorite is revealed it is easy to see if it is stone or metal, but looking at the outside I wouldn't have the vaguest idea of how to differentiate.

I did remark previously that it would be quite improbable that any Javanese maker could weld pure meteorite. I've thought about what I said there, and I'm probably wrong. If a large enough piece of material were to be supplied , and the maker understood that he needed to work very softly in the initial stages, it could probably be brought together into a useable ingot of pure material.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Once the inside of the meteorite is revealed it is easy to see if it is stone or metal, but looking at the outside I wouldn't have the vaguest idea of how to differentiate.

I would think that a magnet might be helpful with this problem.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Alan, thank you.

When I asked young smith Sungkowo whether there is different between keris used meteorite pamor and nickel pamor regarding with its strength of "power". He answered "most probably, yes, there is."

Then the interesting thing is we can not be able to differentiate visually it (based on your valid test).

Another story:
Longtime ago, I have discussed with someone about the spirit of keris. In his opinion, there is a bad category of keris, eventhough, according to pakem, every aspect of that keris is excelent. This kind of keris is a burnt keris. For example, if we find a keris amongst debris of a house burned down, that keris is not a good one. According to his explanation, that keris has already lost its power. Have you heard about stories similiar as it is?

Another example, he picked out Kraton Solo case. In 1980s (?), parts of Keraton burned down. Some people said they found kerises amongst debris. Those kerises, even very beautiful court ones, were classified as powerless pusaka. Why? Because already burnt

As teenager at that time, I had high curiousity to challenge his opinion by provoking that I still beleived those kerises still have giant powers. He defended succinctly his opinion, "If still having giant power, so why was the Keraton burned".

Okay... time is out. Now your turn to tell a fairytail

Usman

[t_c]

This isn't about an Indonesian keris, but rather a Moro kris, but I think it's relevant to your disscusion on blades and spirits.

I haven't told too many people about my experience with this kris, it was a little strange and I was never sure what people would think. One summer I was fortunate enought to visit Madrid and go to the Museo del Ejército (it's a military museum near the Museo del Prado). They have a great collection of old Phillipine weapons. I was looking at one of the krises (no scabbard) in a display case and it started to "rattle" a little bit, just kinda shake or vibrate on it's long axis. I thought it was a little weird and tried not to get excited. I was raised by a structural engineer who installed in me the virtues of the western scientific method, and taught me to always look for the rational explaination for things. With that bearing, I decided to leave the keris and walk around a little more and then come back and see if it would do it again. I did this, and again it "rattled". It was shaking as if you were to bang lightly on the shelf with which it was laying, but nothing else was moving. The rattling didn't last too long on either occassion, a few seconds or so. It stopped and I left the display, but I never could it figure out, but it really seemed as though it had moved on it's own. There may be a "western scientific" answer, or perhaps there was something more to the piece. I do my best to keep an open mind regarding any possible explaination.

For me personally, I know we live in a modern world governed by logic and science (I'm a CAD tech by trade). On the whole, that is the direction my culture (USA) has taken, but it seems there are still some things that science doesn't have an explaination or catagory for (I have witnessed a professed medium resist fire). So take this event/encounter as you will. Mabye it was vibrations in the building that rattled just this piece because it lay on a pivot, or mabye it was saying hi. I don't know.

I would be interested if anyone is aware of any spiritual practices regarding the smithing of blades in Sulu or the Philippines (I know, that's a post for the General Forum).

Thank you all for sharing your experiences, it's allowed me to take a wider view of my own. So hey, mabye I'm not crazy after all and the thing really did move on it's own!

[David]

Originally Posted by t_c

I would be interested if anyone is aware of any spiritual practices regarding the smithing of blades in Sulu or the Philippines (I know, that's a post for the General Forum).
Thank you all for sharing your experiences, it's allowed me to take a wider view of my own. So hey, mabye I'm not crazy after all and the thing really did move on it's own!

Hi TC. You are right, discussion of Moro kris should take place in the General Forum, though i do appreciate your shared experience here. There are, indeed, spiritual practices associated with these blades, though sorting them out often seems even more difficult that with the Indo keris.
I certainly do not doubt your exprience, though even i, with much experience with the metaphysical, would be more inclined to attribute this to a building vibration first. But who know, eh?
Please feel free to start up a similar thread in the General Forum on your experience. I would be interested in the responses there.

[BluErf]

I have always enjoyed reading about the non-material aspect of kerises, though somehow, I just can't remember much of them to retell them to others.

On the vibration of the kris from time-to-time, I can't help but recall a particular meeting room in the building that I work in. The window panes would rattle whenever a truck drives by. Many a visitor would ask - "Was that an earthquake?". I guess the meeting room was situated at the exact spot where vibrations converge.

[David]

Conduits of vibration can be very peculiar sometimes...
Again, i don't mean to discount the metaphysical, but i also think it is very important to look at all the possible natural phenomenon possibilities first. There are many and they are not always so obvious.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by David

i also think it is very important to look at all the possible natural phenomenon possibilities first.

I agree with David.

However, sometimes, not to make simplification is a wise way. If we face two situation in the same time which each one is very logic, it is up to our willingness to relate or unrelate those phenomenon.

For example, yesterday, someone got promotion. It was logic because he was a harworker and had been working very weel. Yesterday, he got telephone from Keris smith informing that his commissioned keris had been finished. It was logic because he commissioned a Keris 2 two year ago and, at that time, the smith had had promised that the Keris would be finished 2 year later.

Then, it is free choice for him to think whether it is a sign or not regarding with the "power" of his new Keris.