In very rusty condition ...but is this a Khanda??

[katana]

Hi Gentlemen,
bought this, but not yet received, so seller's pictures will have to suffice.
Due to the blade shape and hilt I believe this is a Khanda. OAL 40" Comments on this sword and the best way to restore it very gratefully received, thankyou.

[spiral]

Yes in Nepal they call that a Khanda, {Probably same in India.}

Baby oil soak for 24 hours & then 0000 or 000 wire wool to start, it may not be as bad as it looks...


See what it looks like after that. Minimal restoration is always best if possible I think.

Unusual pommel, rather nice. Looks like a lotus bud to me...

Spiral

[Pukka Bundook]

No,
You'll never restore it,.............Just send it to me and I'll 'dispose' of it for you!

Looks just lovely to me!! Not messed about, very solid and genuine.
I'd love something like that!
I noted it still has little ears, where the padding would be laced in place.
Didn't notice the usual reinforce on this one, It may be very old.

Congrats David!!

[katana]

Thankyou both (Spiral & Richard) for your replies Oh, Richard thanks for your kind offer...but no thanks

It arrived today and some minor cleaning of the hilt has revealed some gold Koftgari but very patchy and not alot left . Seems at the time of manufacture most of the hilt had it. Very....very small areas on all parts of the hilt. The blade after a quick clean seems to be well forged, the blade is single edged with a 12" false edge on the opposite side. The blade widens at the 'spatula' tip. There could be a pattern (wootz ) showing behind the partially 'cleaned' areas of the blade ....but, I am in no way certain.
There is some movement in the pommel....but only a small amount....not to sure how to solve this problem. As yet I cannot find any markings on the blade but I am assuming that this sword was of some quality (in its time) because of the gold Koftgari ?

[Pukka Bundook]

Naa,.........It's probably gold spray paint, just send it to me to get rid of!

I can't wait for Jens or Jim or Brian to comment on this one, as they are in a Much better position to say something constructive!

All I can say, is don't go too rash with cleaning, that rust took a long time to get there, and should take a long time to remove!
You could try oiling with Olive oil, as this seems to have a peculiar ability to soften and lift rust in a most gentle manner.
Please document all progress David.

Best wishes,

PB.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Katana,

What you have, is a nice old classic khanda, which I would place in Rajasthan – congratulations. The hilt is nice, and as Spiral writes a bit unusual, the change of the spike to a flower but can be seen now and again, but please tell us about the blade, is it flexible? I think it would be, but I am not sure. How much you will clean it depends on your temperament, some remove the worse rust and make sure it wont rust any further, while others, like me, go a bit further, to make it show more of the original weapon, although I would never remove all the rust to get a shiny khanda. Let us know how the work proceeds.

[katana]

Thanks again Spiral, Richard and Jens,

I will certainly take my time, I have got most of the 'dry, loose' rust off and gently used fine 'wet and dry' (with oil) on the blade. I have rubbed olive oil (no baby oil at present, good suggestion Spiral, being paraffin (kerosene?) based....never thought of it before) and then wrapped the sword in 'cling-film...to soak for a while.

Jens the blade is flexible and the blade's edge is in remarkably good condition and still quite sharp....although a little 'rough'....when felt with the finger-tips.

Has anyone any idea of a date for this Khanda.....would the blade costruction help to ID the 'time period'?

Will try and post close-ups, light permitting , soon

[katana]

Not very good pics, but at least it shows the blade condition and some of the remaining Koftgari....it has mainly survived on the rectangular detail on the 'shoulder' of the guard (both sides of the detail and on both sides of hilt).
Does the diagonal pattern have any significance?

[Flavio]

Hello David, I'm sure that after a lot of work you will be very happy of this piece!! Good job!!!

[katana]

First of all... thankyou for your words of encouragement

Here are some more pics of the blade after hours of more cleaning.....Now I have a problem ....it certainly looks as if it is wootz Now the headache is.... do I clean further (and if so to what degree) and etch

I believe this sword to have some considerable age....under the active rust is a hard, very dark layer of ...what I think is...stabilized rust which is/was relatively thick. The other nice thing ..is the feeling that the sword actually 'appreciates' the amount of cleaning attention it is getting and to a degree the whole process has been slighty 'spiritual'.....I really get a sense that this Khanda has many stories to tell. ( I know a few of you are probably thinking 'this guy needs a straight jacket and medication') ...but this sword has 'something'

There also seems to be more Koftgari than I first thought...but is still patchy, mainly the remains of an edging border around the contours of the hilt. Soaking with oil has helped to loosen some of the rust...but the layer of the harder, stabilized rust is not ...and this is what is covering the remains of some of the Koftgari.
Any suggestions, comments etc gratefully received, thankyou

[Jens Nordlunde]

Katana, you have done a good job so far, and I can only tell you what I would do, not what you should do – as the decision is entirely up to you. If I thought the blade was watered, and I think you may be right that it is a possibility, I would go on cleaning and then etch, if I felt that not too much steel would be removed. I would prefer not to advise on the koft gari only from a description, but maybe someone else can.

[Ian]

Hi katana:

Cleaning heavily rusted steel is always a challenge. One method that I have found very useful at times is mild abrasive blasting using an agent that is not likely to remove the underlying metal. This excludes potent abrasive materials like sand. It is possible to use peanut shells and other organic matter, or a proporietary product such as "Black Beauty." I put masking tape over delicate areas such as koftgari to prevent them being hit by the abrasive as it may dislodge delicate koftgari work or loose inlaid pieces -- hand rubbing is safer.

Of course, you need an abrasive blasting cabinet with good ventilation. I have a friend who lets me use his cabinet -- lucky me -- but if you also have access to such a cabinet it can save hours of hard work and creates a matt finish on the metal after rust removal. I always polish by hand afterwards and use no power tools.

Good luck with that project. I suspect you will be pleasantly surprised.

[Pukka Bundook]

Hi Katana.
How's the cleaning coming along?
Have you found a source for "metal etch" yet?
I'm still looking for a local source, but I'm in western Canada.

I know what you mean about it "appreciating' the cleaning,...........
But if they Do haul you off to the 'funny farm'.....Can I have it?!?

[katana]

Hi Jens,
thanks for your suggestions.....I have further cleaned the blade...but I do not want to go 'too far'. There is still pitting on the blade but feel that removing all the 'pits' would mean removing too much metal. I appreciate that if I etch now, it would not be perfect, but feel it would be worthwhile as the blade will still show its age and the blade construction.
Is it a good idea ???

Hi Ian,
thanks for the info, unfortunately I do not have access to suitable cabinet Would have certainly saved some 'elbow grease'

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Hi Katana.
I know what you mean about it "appreciating' the cleaning,...........
But if they Do haul you off to the 'funny farm'.....Can I have it?!?

Hi Richard,
I may be mad....but I'm not insane.........YET ...
Cleaning seems to be coming on well.....the hilt has been a major headache...trying to preserve the remaining koftgari has been almost impossible a lot of the remaining gold was 'held' in the rust (the rust must have got behind it and lifted it).

Hi Spiral,
your suggestion of using 'baby oil' was a good one, thanks . I have also used it to lubricate the abrasive paper. Several advantages... it is 'kind' to your hands (mine are now lovely and soft So if the Mrs complains about her dry hands, this is the way to get her to clean your blades ).
And as it is colourless, it is clear when first applied and darkens as you clean ...giving a good 'indication' as to how much dirt/rust you are removing

Originally Posted by Flavio

Hello David, I'm sure that after a lot of work you will be very happy of this piece!! Good job!!!

Hi Flavio, thankyou, I am very pleased with this sword.


I have posted some pics....not best quality....

[Jens Nordlunde]

Katana,

You have done a very good job, and I know about the work behind what you have done, but when you see the finish – it is worth all the work.

When a weapon is very rusty, and you try to clean it, you will unfortunately loose a lot, if not all, of the decoration, that being kroft gari or inlay, as the rust has gotten unter the decoration, and I kow that it is a rotten dession to make – do I want to clean the blade and loose what is left of the decoration, or do I leave it as it is.

You have done it well, but I think, that I for my own curiossity, would try to etch part of the blade – just to know – it is removeable.

Jens

[katana]

Thanks for your comments Jens. Your are right about the decoration, I am certain that there was some decorative etching to the blade....but the rust had all but destroyed it (not enough to 'work out' what it could be) and now the cleaning has totally removed it all.
I may be lucky, perhaps there may be a chance that after an etch there may be some 'shadows' of these designs......but I'm not 'holding my breath'

Hopefully, my next pictures will show a wootz pattern.......

[katana]

Originally Posted by katana

Hopefully, my next pictures will show a wootz pattern.......

Well this is as far as I have got ( and not through lack of effort either)
I feel that I will not be able to remove all the pits without removing too much thickness from the blade. So , other than the final 'sanding' with the finer grades of paper I will not be 'cleaning' anymore. Pictures below show the best side of the blade, the other side is more deeply pitted but should still look OK when etched.
Finding etchant (in small quantities...... has been difficult...but now have some on order) So hopefully mid week I will get to see that 'WOOTZ'

Now, I really need to find more info on this Khanda.....it has been suggested that this could be an early example....has anyone got any ideas as to date, region etc.........I would be greatly appreciated

Regards David

[Jens Nordlunde]

Katana,
Funny to se a ricasso on the blade, I did not see it before. I think it may be a Rajasthan khanda, and I believe it has quite some age to it, how much, I will let others be the judges of that.

[Pukka Bundook]

David,
I think you're right to stop about now with the cleaning.
It looks lovely, and would spoil it to look too 'new'.

I don't know a thing about khandas, but to me it seems seriously old and of great interest.
This I base more on logic than knowlege (!) for the following reasons;

This khanda has a ricasso, as Jens mentions, and no supporting strips down the blade, (long at back, short at front)
Never seems to have had these supports, as on ones I've seen, they are joined at the top, and are fixed to the hilt.

Because of this lack, it would appear to have been made before it was quite decided what a khanda should look like, Which automatically sets it as very early.
(Either that, or very late, and from the looks I think we can rule that out!)

Also, the rusted appearance looked nearly as bad as on my old English Back-sword when I got it. (1630's)
I'm not saying it Is that old, I don't know.
All I know is, it has something that makes it stand out, to me at least, as being very old and interesting!

I do hope someone with more information can tie it down a bit closer.
BTW, How does it feel in the hand?

Richard.

[Jim McDougall]

I have been watching this with great interest, and completely agree with Richard, that further removal of patination should stop here. Honestly I prefer the dark patination personally, as that ,in my imaginings holds history itself.
In any case, I think Jens is entirely correct, that this is most probably from Rajasthan regions, and I believe a sword from early to mid 18th century with some very interesting aspects that I will explain further.

The most fascinating thing about this weapon is that it appears to be a hybrid form, as certain elements such as the distinctive spatulate blade tip and the bud on the pommel of the hilt suggest this is the elusive South Indian sword known as 'pattisa'. This is discussed in Pant ("Indian Arms & Armour, New Delhi, 1980, p.65) and the author notes that Rawson has grouped the pattisa and khanda into the same category ("The Indian Sword"). The key differences are that pattisa typically do not have the knuckleguard, as seen on this early form of Hindu basket hilt, and as noted, the pommel has the bud, and then there is the spatulate blade.
With the full hilt favored by Rajputs on thier khandas, and the blade of spatulate form as well as the distinctive bud pommel, this may be as indicated, a very early hybrid weapon.Of further interest is that this may well have been furbished by one of the nomadic Gandi Lohar armourers that were so favored by the Rajputs ("By My Sword and Shield" , E.Jaiwent Paul, New Delhi, 1995, p.54-55).

I would consider this sword best classified as a patissa with khanda form basket hilt, probably Rajput, early to mid 18th c.

It is interesting, as Jens notes, that there is a ricasso on this blade, which seems entirely unnecessary on a basket hilt sword, lending certain credence to the likelihood of its purpose to act more as a choil in sharpening than to provide a finger support position. Discussions on that topic have remained at impasse with no conclusions, thus we must remain satisfied that perhaps there were multiple purposes.

On a different track concerning these interesting spatulate blades, consider the much wider influence this blade form may have had on the weapons in other cultural spheres, such as Africa. Look at the Maasai 'seme' and the shape of the blade, seen on a recently run thread. While these typically have the rhomboid cross section, the overall blade profile is compellingly similar.
Just a thought

All the best,
Jim

[katana]

Hi Jens,
thanks again for your input... ..the ricasso was a mystery to me as well, unless this was the way the sword was held when 'two handed'.....which does not seem logical ...having a totally unprotected hand would not seem sensible. I did consider the possibillity that this could have an 'execution' function....but soon dismissed it. The spine has a number of nicks in it (all very old...hidden behind the rust) which suggests this sword has been used defensively.

Hi Richard,
my main concern was to leave some of the sword's age by not removing all its 'history'. My compromise was to get one side of the blade in a condition that would show any pattern (wootz) clearly, onced etched. The other side is more pitted and 'displays' its 'antiquity' better.
The blade although slightly thinner than the average sword blade, is flexible but strong. The hilt is 'tight' (as in Tulwar) , or very tight ...bearing in mind the original padding would 'pack it out' a little. In the hand the sword is fast and very very slightly 'top' heavy .....but feel that is due to length.

Hi Jim,
Thanks for your informative post, and you have given me more leads to research .....which I appreciate
Very pleased indeed, to have acquired a sword with , potentially, a very colourful past. A sword I will truly treasure

[Jim McDougall]

It should be noted as well that the 'pattisa' blades were noted as being quite flexible, and of course the widened tip added weight and force to the slashing cuts. It is interesting that the flexible blades used in such slashing cuts also gained favor in Arabia, in particular Oman, where the kattara blades are often seen almost undulating in swordplay. As I have mentioned, the pattisa form blade may well have diffused into Africa via Arab trade on the Malabar Coast and into Zanzibar, an Omani Sultanate, from there via trade into Kenya.

Amazing how weapons can diffuse across continents isn't it!!! But this is what our studies are about

All the best,
Jim

[katana]

Tried to etch with ferric chloride......but could not produce a pattern

After posting this thread
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4306

I then used vinegar at room temperature to slow the etching process.....but still no pattern.....so its not wootz But, previously 'clean, smooth, bright' areas of the blade developed tiny, dark 'pinhole' pitting which seem to be 'grouped' together in random lines. It suggests that the blade is composed of 'different' steels, but I cannot see evidence of pattern welding. The earlier corrosion seemed to show a 'pattern' (pictures earlier in thread, 2nd March)

Checking to find how the corrosion rates vary for iron and steel I find this web page which suggests that carbon steel corrodes quicker than iron.


http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:1...nk&cd=24&gl=uk

So the question is ....is the blade composed of areas of different steels or are there impurities which are easily corroded by acid.

The blade seems well made, strong, flexible and is easily sharpened (and retains the edge well)

[katana]

Some pictures which may help......I have edited these with a higher than normal 'contrast' to make them clearer.

[RSWORD]

In your 1st and 4th pictures is the cutting edge at the top of the picture? If you look closely at the pictures you have what looks like a "hamon". This is suggestive that this blade might be of tripartite construction, in other words, an inserted edge sandwiched between softer cheeks. The pattern that seems to show along the edge is a result of that construction and the edge being heat treated. You see this in some Indian swords, as well as, a number of other cultures.

[katana]

Hi Rsword,
unfortunately the spine is uppermost....the pictures are not too clear. The more highly polished area along the edge of the spine was caused by the fact that it was slightly 'raised' from the surface of the blade. A sort of very, very shallow fuller ran parallel with the spine, not deep enough to sand smooth independently but 'high' enough to 'catch' the abrasive paper causing more metal loss from the spine area, giving it a 'cleaner look'.

Regards David

[katana]

Just two final questions to wrap this thread up...

The pommel finial, the 'lotus bud' is slightly loose and rattles slightly. Would it be OK to solder it into position? Aradite??

Secondly, there appears to be loose material inside the 'disc pommel' which rattles. I assumed that it was loose rusted metal from inside the hilt that had flaked off. But placing a magnet on the hilt does not 'hold' these pieces still. So I do not think it is ferrous metal. So ....would this 'rattle' be an original feature and if so.......why???

Thankyou all for help with this thread

Regards David

[galvano]

My pulwar makes also noise.
I believe that is voluntary.
galvano

[katana]

Thanks Galvano ,
your Pulwar has a very nice hilt Do you think the rattle had some symbolic or religious reason?

Regards David

[ward]

nice chiseled hilt good example