Naval Caribbean rapier

[midelburgo]

I have always suspected the so called Caribbean Rapiers were actually not caribbean made swords but Spanish navy trooper swords.

Some underwater footage from the wreck of the galleon San Jose, sunk in 1708, backs this idea. The site is 600 meters deep underwater, so you get less oxygen for oxidation and less fauna for crusts.

See at 39 seconds:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTcKZgn7Whk

At the same wreck there are also examples of the officer version, the two shell rapiers.

See at 59 seconds:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW9TzSVvBUM


Identified naval wrecks are helpful for an ante diem datation of weaponry.

For example, in the war of the Spanish sucession (1700-1714) French supplied the weaponry of many Spanish regiments with French models from St Etienne and Charleville manufactures. However there are no survivors of these weapons and Spanish authors ignore the subject alltogether. But there are exceptions... underwater relics.

The picture show French naval sabres hilts found at the Nuestra señora de Guadalupe galleon, sunk in 1724.

This is the subject of a book I ordered recently.

[Jim McDougall]

You always bring up interesting topics! especially with Spanish weapons of the colonial period, which as you well pointed out some years ago, may well have been from Peninsular context as well though we presume cruder character suggests colonial mfg.

I am a bit puzzled about the 'Caribbean' rapier reference, are you referring to the cup hilt forms which often seem mounted with heavier 'arming' type blades? In the brief glimpse of the wreck site from 1708 in the linked Utube entry, there seemed an intact cup type hilt with the quillon across.

I could not make out the shell type versions. Are they in accord with these images attached? you indicate these are from the book shown by Mr.Wells, but going through that I could not find the images.

Please forgive my confusion, just wanted to be sure I am following.

I have always understood these much simpler versions of the often smartly embellished Spanish cup hilt rapiers, especially in the 'arming sword' character were indeed from makers in the colonies, hence being labeled 'Caribbean' in most references. I had always thought of the very crude example shown in "Arms and Armor in Colonial America" (Peterson) which I cannot seem to find an image of, were the typical examples of these forms.

However, I later found that better quality examples but still relatively austere were also deemed 'colonial'.

Attached are images of one with what appears cross hatched ebony grip, and my humble example which as had a crude bone grip refurbished.

Regarding use of these kinds of swords aboard Spanish vessels, I had understood there were small contingents of soldiers aboard vessels, especially those with valuable cargo, including precious metals.

Not surprising that Spanish authors do not refer to the sources of these arms whether France or Solingen. As noted, these munitions grade arms were seldom preserved and ended up as scrap or repurposed.......the exception as always, the in situ wreckage of these vessels.

[Hotspur]

Great stuff!

I have one of the French swords and have found a few more. It's super to have a good date for them.

Cheers
GC

[Hotspur]

David, of The Royal Sword shared his at one point and I saved that set

[Hotspur]

They are almost peas in a pod. The Rose hangers, from a century later are very similar

[midelburgo]

The pictures of the relic hilts from the 1724 galleon came from this Spanish 2019 pH D thesis (UNA INVESTIGACIÓN HISTÓRICO-ARQUEOLÓGICA. EL NAUFRAGIO DEL NAVÍO NUESTRA SEÑORA DE GUADALUPE Y SAN ANTONIO. FLOTA DE AZOGUES DE 1724, BAHÍA DE SAMANÁ, REPÚBLICA DOMINICANA).

https://repositorio.uam.es/bitstream...d565d/download

page 360.

I have found what appears a survivor from those French hilts. It has a Spanish blade with the no me saques motto, possibly from Barcelona, and the markings of the Spanish Royal Navy (RA).

I have not received yet the book By Noel Wells.

[midelburgo]

It is important to note that brass foundry was uncommon in Spain. In XVIth century most brass domestic items were brought from Germany. Bronze was often used instead.

So the weapons given by the French in the Sucession war were probably the first brass hilted weapons since the Granada moors were expelled (their ginetas had brass hilts).

Some years ago I bought at the city of Lerida the sword below. The hilt is that of the French dragoon 1695 model. From the blade (80cm) I have had some indications that it could be a much earlier Spanish blade (motto is INRI MARIA).

Lerida was often at the frontline in 1700-1714. Whole Spanish cavalry and dragoon regiments were equiped by the French, and with their own sword models, including the 1695. Also many French regiments were busy in the peninsula. I have seen the notice that volume number 26 (1980) of Armes Blanches Françaises by Aries, has an article on those units, but although I have Hoste and Petard books, I do not have that one. Maybe somebody can confirm this point. Petard, first volume, page 30, indicates cavalry had blades of 95-98cm and dragoons, with the same single "pontat" hilt, 80cm.

[Hotspur]

The foundry information makes sense that the blade fitments often seem a second thought. Almost as if they were rebladed. A barrel of guards would ship well. Cast by the bushel.

Cheers
GC

[Jim McDougall]

This really is an interesting topic, and in support of what Midelburgo suggests, toward the case of Spanish naval fleets, from William Gilkerson (1991, "Boarders Away" p.19) ,
"...fleets were commanded largely by soldiers, and its ships were equipped largely with land service small arms right into the 19th c. Hence, while the Spanish navy was hugely important to the geopolitics of the period and to the maintenance of the Spanish colonial empire, its weaponry was as obsolete as its organization. Indeed in all the vast chambers of Madrid's Museo Navale, it is difficult to find a small arm of specifically naval origin from the period of our study".

An example of the form of French hanger is found in "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution", George Neumann, 1973, p.79, 54.S.
It is captioned as c. 1725-50 brass hilt, blade 27 3/4" single or double edge straight, and for French grenadiers.

As noted, with lack of foundries for brass work and of course munitions grade arms, during the War of Spanish Succession with France allied with Castilian Spain it seems reasonable that St.Etienne weapons would be supplied.
While Nuemann suggests the 1725 as the terminus post quem for the 'pattern' it is likely these were around notably prior.

With Spanish soldiers aboard vessels, these munitions grade weapons as seen were certainly not unusual though not specifically 'naval'. The examples of rapiers typically deemed 'Caribbean; versions of the more refined Spanish cuphilts, were probably used by officers in command of these military units which were aboard these vessels. They may have been produced in the colonial ports or by armorers in the ports in the Peninsula.

[Jim McDougall]

"Small Arms of the Spanish Treasure Fleets", Noel Wells, 2006, p.72

"...in Spain, the term rapier was often used to designate small swords, and the first such land patterns authorized for wear by officers began to appear in the middle of the 18th century. There were no designated sea service swords at this time, and if an officer or anyone of lower ranks wanted one, he either purchased a non-regulation sword or adopted an existing army model".

An intriguing and comprehensive book, which gives dynamic perspectives on the weaponry even including dogs and horses as used in warfare in these colonial situations, as well as the Indian arms.

[midelburgo]

9pm

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

This really is an interesting topic, and in support of what Midelburgo suggests, toward the case of Spanish naval fleets, from William Gilkerson (1991, "Boarders Away" p.19) ,
"...fleets were commanded largely by soldiers, and its ships were equipped largely with land service small arms right into the 19th c. Hence, while the Spanish navy was hugely important to the geopolitics of the period and to the maintenance of the Spanish colonial empire, its weaponry was as obsolete as its organization. Indeed in all the vast chambers of Madrid's Museo Navale, it is difficult to find a small arm of specifically naval origin from the period of our study".

An example of the form of French hanger is found in "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution", George Neumann, 1973, p.79, 54.S.
It is captioned as c. 1725-50 brass hilt, blade 27 3/4" single or double edge straight, and for French grenadiers.

As noted, with lack of foundries for brass work and of course munitions grade arms, during the War of Spanish Succession with France allied with Castilian Spain it seems reasonable that St.Etienne weapons would be supplied.
While Nuemann suggests the 1725 as the terminus post quem for the 'pattern' it is likely these were around notably prior.

With Spanish soldiers aboard vessels, these munitions grade weapons as seen were certainly not unusual though not specifically 'naval'. The examples of rapiers typically deemed 'Caribbean; versions of the more refined Spanish cuphilts, were probably used by officers in command of these military units which were aboard these vessels. They may have been produced in the colonial ports or by armorers in the ports in the Peninsula.

I am currently discovering many a publication that has taken place from the academic side in recent years. All the burocratic account are there, but very few used them until now. This is giving a new image.

Spain had a huge utilitarian small weapon production. It is similar to what happened with the iron cannon from La Cavada ironworks. Those guns are everywhere across America fortifications. They were cheap, ugly and unmarked. And functioned well when their carriages were not rotten and their crews were paid.

In relation with the ARRIVILLAGA cavalry sword. Tolosa produced 1500-2000 swords a month for a century. We are used (I was at least) to think of a dominating Toledo production that declined in the second half of XVII century, then was substituted by Solingen production, until the new Toledo factory restarted in 1761. But now it seems it was more complex.

A Royal Factory was stablished in 1596 in Eugui, near Pamplona with a couple of dozens of Milan armourers, swordsmiths and cannonball founders.

Armour making and swordsmithy, (and the surviving milanese and their descendance) were moved to Tolosa in 1630. Nearby Plasencia made some 20000 muskets a year. With the Louis XIV wars their activity increased.

In the war of the Spanish succession (1700-1714) a weaponry conglomerate was expanded in Cataluña for the archiduke Charles side, swords were made in Barcelona, using Austrian models (and know-how, I suppose), and this included brass foundry. Probably brass use was already foundry in place for pieces of fireweapons.

For the Felipe V faction about 25-30% of the weapon needs were suplied by the French (those solid brass hilts were made up to 1730).

In 1715, just after the war finished, Felipe V started planning the recovery of the lost possesions in Italy, so the Barcelona weapon making center was expanded.

For a while both centers continued producing weaponry at full speed. Swords could have their blades made in Tolosa or Barcelona. If the hilts were iron they were made in Durango. If brass, in Barcelona. The French weapons from the war, were slowly recicled.

Somehow, Tolosa stopped working as a Royal Factory in 1721. Then they had the asiento system for a while. I suspect the ARRIVILLAGA swords belong to a contract from 1734. But this did not worked well.

Solingen contracts filled the gaps when Barcelona of Tolosa were not enough.

Toledo started producing blades in 1761, but it was secondary to Barcelona, at least until the new building was made in 1781. Brass hilts were made in Barcelona and moved to Toledo. Iron hilts continued being made in Durango.

As the Toledo Royal Factory started winning track, Barcelona was given less and less asiento contracts. Tolosa was completely forgotten by then, although Eibar started making hilts (brass and iron) in the 1790s and blades in 1815.

To give you an idea of the mess that has arrived to us, take swords 168, 170, 193 and 194 from Brinckerhof's book. Currently I believe, they started life as dragon sabers before 1767. They had brass hilts and both, hilt and blade were made in Barcelona. When a new model of dragoon swords became straight, the hilts were repurposed for infantry swords and many blades were shortened, and others were sent to America. The next dragoon model had a straight, one edge blade (from Toledo and dated between 1769 and 1777). It seems these blades were also sent to America with the adoption of another dragoon model with two edges. Brinckerhof also shows one with date 1776. You can find them often with XIXth century hilts (In Peru, Mexico, Argentina, USA) but they are rare in Spain. I have only seen once, in relic condition, one with its original (Barcelona) hilt. No museum has them. Although the hilts can be found in grenadier swords, still in Spain, and the blades in many places in America.

In plate 166, Brinckerhof shows some of the 44 unmounted cavalry blades found as a hoard in Louisiana. They had become outdated by a new line cavalry model in 1803, and a little later, Spain gave Louisiana to France. So they did no have the time to put hilts to them!

[midelburgo]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

"Small Arms of the Spanish Treasure Fleets", Noel Wells, 2006, p.72

"...in Spain, the term rapier was often used to designate small swords, and the first such land patterns authorized for wear by officers began to appear in the middle of the 18th century. There were no designated sea service swords at this time, and if an officer or anyone of lower ranks wanted one, he either purchased a non-regulation sword or adopted an existing army model".

An intriguing and comprehensive book, which gives dynamic perspectives on the weaponry even including dogs and horses as used in warfare in these colonial situations, as well as the Indian arms.

Rapier (ropera) was used in a couple of inventories in the 1480s and then dissapeared of Spanish language until XXth century.

In the Album of the Marques de la Victoria (1720s-1740s) there is a dedicated plate to sea weapons. In some navigation and naval subject books (like Alonso de Chaves, middle of XVIth century) you can find descriptions of sea weaponry.

In spite of all the hollywood stuff, spanish weapons and ships were mostly simple undecorated matters, and anonimous. That is why it is dificcult to associate and identify survivors, and these were not "interesting" or have been reused up to their destruction.

[Jim McDougall]

Midelburgo, I cannot even describe all this insight and data you have added but for one word...BRILLIANT!
You have completely and resoundingly revised everything I knew (or thought I knew on Spanish and its colonial weapons industries).
Please pardon my exuberance, but understanding these matters has always been important to me, and your well researched detail is so valuable, and I thank you for sharing it here.

Thank you very much!

Jim