Arabic....North African curved dagger...comments / help - Page 2

VANDOO · 18th June 2006, 05:37 PM

PERHAPS THEY WERE MADE AS THEY ARE TO MAKE THEM LESS OF A KILLING WEAPON BUT STILL FUNCTIONAL JUST IN CASE TROUBLE STARTED, A MAN FELT NAKED WITHOUT A WEAPON IN THOSE DAYS. IN A GATHERING OR CEREMONY OR IN THE PRESENCE OF ROYALTY OR HIGH RANKING PEOPLE THOSE ATTENDING WERE OFTEN ALLOWED A CERTIAN TYPE OF KNIFE OR SWORD. THIS IS COMMON IN MANY DIFFERENT SOCIETYS AROUND THE WORLD ,SOME OF THE COURT SWORDS FOR INSTANCE OR THE WEDUNG IN INDONESIAN COURTS. THAT WOULD BE MY GUESS AS MOST OF WHAT I HAVE READ OR HEARD OVER THE YEARS ASSOCIATED THESE KNIVES WITH SPECIAL CEREMONY AND NOT OPEN WARFARE. THEY ARE DESIGNED TO BE ORNAMENTAL AND NICE TO LOOK AT AND NO DOUBT THE WAY THEY ARE DECORATED HAS SOME SIGNIFICENCE WHICH IS PROBABLY LOST IN TODAYS SOCIETY. SO IN A GATHERING OF MEN IF A FIGHT STARTED THERE MIGHT BE SOME BLOOD BUT MOST LIKELY NO DEATH AND THE GAURDS COULD EASILY STOP A FIGHT AS THEY WOULD BE THE ONLY ONES WITH REAL FIGHTING WEAPONS. I DO CONSIDER THEM A CEREMONIAL WEAPON AND DEFINITELY ETHINOGRAPHIC AND NEAT TO LOOK AT SO THEREFORE COLLECTABLE. CONJECTURE MY SPECIALTY

katana · 19th June 2006, 02:40 PM

If 2mm thick blades are common to 'Wedding Nimcha's', and as a ceremonial dagger it's function is to look good, show status etc. Why has mine got a functional blade.
Pure speculation, could it have been made to look like a ceremonial piece, so that a 'live' blade could be sneaked into a Ceremonial environment, perhaps the 'bridegroom' to be, had issues with his new in-laws....

It's a shame that the knife on Oriental Arms does not describe the thickness of the blade, however looking through the additional photos, the knives look almost identical. IMHO the carving and finish of the handle is not as good as mine, and there are slight differences in its shape. The blade looks to be inferior too, but that could be the photograph........or is it because I am bias ....

Rick · 19th June 2006, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

If 2mm thick blades are common to 'Wedding Nimcha's', and as a ceremonial dagger it's function is to look good, show status etc. Why has mine got a functional blade.
Pure speculation, could it have been made to look like a ceremonial piece, so that a 'live' blade could be sneaked into a Ceremonial environment, perhaps the 'bridegroom' to be, had issues with his new in-laws....

It's a shame that the knife on Oriental Arms does not describe the thickness of the blade, however looking through the additional photos, the knives look almost identical. IMHO the carving and finish of the handle is not as good as mine, and there are slight differences in its shape. The blade looks to be inferior too, but that could be the photograph........or is it because I am bias ....

Katana , I believe Barry hit the nail on the head in his post that preceeds yours .
The carving is quite simple to do and is referred to as 'chip carving' ; it goes quite quickly . Even 3 mm is less than an eighth of an inch ; pretty standard for these pieces ; mine was that thick also .

You certainly do not need to accept anyones evaluation of this piece however ; and I do give you kudos for your imagination .

VANDOO · 19th June 2006, 05:26 PM

I THINK THE THICKNESS OF THE BLADE AND QUALITY OF THE CARVEING ARE MORE OF A INDICATION OF AGE THAN FUNCTION. THE MORE RECENT MADE ONES ARE MADE MORE QUICKLEY AND LESS EXPENSIVE, SO THINNER BLADES AND PLASTIC RATHER THAN CORAL OR REAL STONES WOULD COST LESS. THE BLADES ON WEDUNGS AND COURT SWORDS ARE HEAVY ENOUGH AND COULD INFLICT HARM BUT THE DESIGN IS NOT VERY GOOD FOR FIGHTING COMPARED TO WEAPONS THAT ARE DESIGNED EFFECIENTLY FOR WAR. LOOK AT THE OTHER SWORDS AND DAGGERS FROM THE AREA FOR COMPARASON, AND SEE WHAT YOU WOULD CHOOSE TO DEFEND YOURSELF FROM SOMEONE WELL ARMED.

AS THERE IS NO CONCRETE INFORMATION ON THESE DAGGERS ONE CAN THINK WHAT ONE WANTS. EITHER WAY I STILL LIKE THEM AS A COLLECTABLE AS THEY ARE AN AUTHENTIC ARTEFACT OF THE CULTURE NOT JUST SOMETHING INVENTED TO SELL TO TOURISTS.

katana · 19th June 2006, 05:52 PM

Thanks everyone for your input.....I suspect one of these daggers will, again, be posted for comments in the future.

I suppose, to sum up, it is likely to be a quality Nimcha type dagger from the Algiers ( Ref; Oriental Arms) and probably ceremonial in nature, with a 'useable' blade.

It is a nice knife, hopefully new information will help decide how these knives should be catergorised and labelled but, until then I think the description above will have to suffice...

katana · 7th August 2006, 10:42 PM

This Nimcha (wedding?) has just finished on eBay.....e-mailed seller...the blade was 4mm and very similar to the one I own..but has an less acute curve..tried a late bid ..but missed out. It seems there are more Nimcha 'daggers' with useable blades

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1

Hager · 15th January 2008, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

Hello katana,

I'm still unsure whether my variant is made for Those Who Travel For Pleasure or not. It has a thin 2mm blade, crude engravings and the scabbard and hilt only have brass inlay, not carving like yours. I had the impression that these are indeed Moroccan and that they have a ceremonial function -hence the name Wedding Nimcha. To me they look like a non-weapon derivative of the shula.

Emanuel

Hello ,
I was hoping someone in the know might help me . I just received a matched pair of the blades and scabbards identical to the one Manola illustraited in his post . They were given to me by my mother and I remember them in our house in the 1950's . She thinks the date from early 1900's but really doesn't know for sure . Was wondering if anyone ever got a definative answer as to their history and what would their value be ? Don't intend to sell them , just curious as to what I have here ?Any thoughts would be appreciated .Thanks.

Hager .

katana · 18th January 2008, 09:09 PM

Hello Hagar,
welcome to the forum....

Manolo posted two different types, which one are you refering to.

Regards David

.

spiral · 18th January 2008, 10:39 PM

Presumably real blades are spring temperd, show & tourist blades may or may not be.

Guess one can always hang up half a pig & stab away & see whether blade & tang stands the reality of serious reapted use or not ...

Spiral

Emanuel · 18th January 2008, 11:40 PM

Hello Hager,

It seems that WWII is a fair date for these "wedding nimcha" (Katana's and my first posts). It's likely based on the tourist flyssas and the second knife, the shula, which I believe to be a late-19th century type.
I got my nimcha for 50USD in 2005 and that was overpaying. I've seen them go on eBay for much less, and at times for much much more. I do not think they are worth more than 20USD in the west, and they're probably 5USD in the suks and bazzars of Morocco. Sorry it's just not a valuable knife, although it's a pretty-looking souvenir and may obviously have sentimental value.

I agree with what Spiral said, but I suggest you do not try cutting with these knives.

Regards,
Emanuel

18th January 2008, 09:09 PM	#38
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hello Hagar, welcome to the forum.... Manolo posted two different types, which one are you refering to. Regards David . Attached Images

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18th June 2006, 05:37 PM	#31
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	PERHAPS THEY WERE MADE AS THEY ARE TO MAKE THEM LESS OF A KILLING WEAPON BUT STILL FUNCTIONAL JUST IN CASE TROUBLE STARTED, A MAN FELT NAKED WITHOUT A WEAPON IN THOSE DAYS. IN A GATHERING OR CEREMONY OR IN THE PRESENCE OF ROYALTY OR HIGH RANKING PEOPLE THOSE ATTENDING WERE OFTEN ALLOWED A CERTIAN TYPE OF KNIFE OR SWORD. THIS IS COMMON IN MANY DIFFERENT SOCIETYS AROUND THE WORLD ,SOME OF THE COURT SWORDS FOR INSTANCE OR THE WEDUNG IN INDONESIAN COURTS. THAT WOULD BE MY GUESS AS MOST OF WHAT I HAVE READ OR HEARD OVER THE YEARS ASSOCIATED THESE KNIVES WITH SPECIAL CEREMONY AND NOT OPEN WARFARE. THEY ARE DESIGNED TO BE ORNAMENTAL AND NICE TO LOOK AT AND NO DOUBT THE WAY THEY ARE DECORATED HAS SOME SIGNIFICENCE WHICH IS PROBABLY LOST IN TODAYS SOCIETY. SO IN A GATHERING OF MEN IF A FIGHT STARTED THERE MIGHT BE SOME BLOOD BUT MOST LIKELY NO DEATH AND THE GAURDS COULD EASILY STOP A FIGHT AS THEY WOULD BE THE ONLY ONES WITH REAL FIGHTING WEAPONS. I DO CONSIDER THEM A CEREMONIAL WEAPON AND DEFINITELY ETHINOGRAPHIC AND NEAT TO LOOK AT SO THEREFORE COLLECTABLE. CONJECTURE MY SPECIALTY

19th June 2006, 02:40 PM	#32
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	If 2mm thick blades are common to 'Wedding Nimcha's', and as a ceremonial dagger it's function is to look good, show status etc. Why has mine got a functional blade. Pure speculation, could it have been made to look like a ceremonial piece, so that a 'live' blade could be sneaked into a Ceremonial environment, perhaps the 'bridegroom' to be, had issues with his new in-laws.... It's a shame that the knife on Oriental Arms does not describe the thickness of the blade, however looking through the additional photos, the knives look almost identical. IMHO the carving and finish of the handle is not as good as mine, and there are slight differences in its shape. The blade looks to be inferior too, but that could be the photograph........or is it because I am bias ....

19th June 2006, 05:26 PM	#34
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I THINK THE THICKNESS OF THE BLADE AND QUALITY OF THE CARVEING ARE MORE OF A INDICATION OF AGE THAN FUNCTION. THE MORE RECENT MADE ONES ARE MADE MORE QUICKLEY AND LESS EXPENSIVE, SO THINNER BLADES AND PLASTIC RATHER THAN CORAL OR REAL STONES WOULD COST LESS. THE BLADES ON WEDUNGS AND COURT SWORDS ARE HEAVY ENOUGH AND COULD INFLICT HARM BUT THE DESIGN IS NOT VERY GOOD FOR FIGHTING COMPARED TO WEAPONS THAT ARE DESIGNED EFFECIENTLY FOR WAR. LOOK AT THE OTHER SWORDS AND DAGGERS FROM THE AREA FOR COMPARASON, AND SEE WHAT YOU WOULD CHOOSE TO DEFEND YOURSELF FROM SOMEONE WELL ARMED. AS THERE IS NO CONCRETE INFORMATION ON THESE DAGGERS ONE CAN THINK WHAT ONE WANTS. EITHER WAY I STILL LIKE THEM AS A COLLECTABLE AS THEY ARE AN AUTHENTIC ARTEFACT OF THE CULTURE NOT JUST SOMETHING INVENTED TO SELL TO TOURISTS.

19th June 2006, 05:52 PM	#35
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thanks everyone for your input.....I suspect one of these daggers will, again, be posted for comments in the future. I suppose, to sum up, it is likely to be a quality Nimcha type dagger from the Algiers ( Ref; Oriental Arms) and probably ceremonial in nature, with a 'useable' blade. It is a nice knife, hopefully new information will help decide how these knives should be catergorised and labelled but, until then I think the description above will have to suffice...

7th August 2006, 10:42 PM	#36
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	This Nimcha (wedding?) has just finished on eBay.....e-mailed seller...the blade was 4mm and very similar to the one I own..but has an less acute curve..tried a late bid ..but missed out. It seems there are more Nimcha 'daggers' with useable blades http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1

18th January 2008, 10:39 PM	#39
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Presumably real blades are spring temperd, show & tourist blades may or may not be. Guess one can always hang up half a pig & stab away & see whether blade & tang stands the reality of serious reapted use or not ... Spiral

18th January 2008, 11:40 PM	#40
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello Hager, It seems that WWII is a fair date for these "wedding nimcha" (Katana's and my first posts). It's likely based on the tourist flyssas and the second knife, the shula, which I believe to be a late-19th century type. I got my nimcha for 50USD in 2005 and that was overpaying. I've seen them go on eBay for much less, and at times for much much more. I do not think they are worth more than 20USD in the west, and they're probably 5USD in the suks and bazzars of Morocco. Sorry it's just not a valuable knife, although it's a pretty-looking souvenir and may obviously have sentimental value. I agree with what Spiral said, but I suggest you do not try cutting with these knives. Regards, Emanuel