Yataghan and markings - ID and comments, please

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent synopsis GP, while the Pandours were indeed a specific group of diverse ethnicities formed into auxiliary forces for the armies of Maria Theresa in the wars of Spanish Succession in mid 18th c.

They were comprised in many cases of border guards in Croatian regions as well as security forces. Other Balkan groups as well as Hungarians also were included.
Baron Franz von Trenck, as you note formed these forces, who were assigned to carry out skirmishing as well as acquiring supplies. This unfortunately became ruthless pillaging and atrocious activity which led eventually to the disbandment of these forces and imprisonment of von Trenck.

These forces had worn exotic oriental style clothing, and all manner of styles of hair, drooping mustaches, shaved heads with scalp locks etc. and brandished 'exotic' weaponry including the yataghan, and other Eastern sabers.
Their terrifying look and demeanor remained profoundly in the minds of Europeans for decades, and their 'exploits' and threat became hubris which was placed on blades of weapons for decades, VIVAT PANDUR.

Von Trenck's own yataghan style sword was sold at auction some years back, and had come from the Charles Buttin collection.

A note on Robert Elgood's book on Balkan weapons. I recall when he was writing this, most of his emphasis was on the firearms, thus I suspect the yataghan coverage was less than as thorough as his usual work. The study of the yataghan itself is very complex because of its diversity and diffusion through thev expanse of the Ottoman Empire, so relying on a single resource without heavy cross referencing as you suggest , is essential.

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by gp

Elgood, no disrespect intended, is for me not leading on Yataghans as i am reading now Durdica Petrovic's book "Balkan waepons (VII-XIX) , one of 4 she wrote, which Elgood used to write for his piece on yataghans.

GP, reading Elgood's bibliography it seems I am not lucky enough for there to be an English translation of these books. Am I correct? Am I looking for "The Armorers' craft in Metohija"? I couldn't find a reference to the book you mentioned in the "Arms of Greece". Even an edition in a romance language preferably Spanish would be a big help.

[gp]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

GP, reading Elgood's bibliography it seems I am not lucky enough for there to be an English translation of these books. Am I correct? Am I looking for "The Armorers' craft in Metohija"? I couldn't find a reference to the book you mentioned in the "Arms of Greece". Even an edition in a romance language preferably Spanish would be a big help.

correct , there are unfortunately in the Balkans hardly to few translations of these books. One can be lucky to find them in latin and not cyrilic writing...which makes it a little eassier. Most data is indeed translated by the likes of Elgood or Austrian and German sources who did have always intersting publications on the Balkans. There are some English ones but hardly on cold weapons. I use the original Serbian, Croatian, Montenegrin Yugoslav books and translate it myself. Fortunately some Bulgarian, Rumanian and Turkish ones are also partially in English. You can find them in some of my posts on Bosnian arms, yataghans and bichaqs.
Also sadly publications in or from Balkan got often ignored due to unknown reasons to me.

Some literature:

Niels A. Andersen, On some Political Gold Yatagans from Algiers and Tunis, Vaabenhistoriske Aarbøger XIII, København 1966, page 159/226.
Esin Atil, The Age of Sultan Suleyman the Magnificent, Washington 1987, page 147, 152/153,
Maurice Bottet, La Manufacture d'Armes de Versailles, Boutet Directeur Artiste, Paris 1903,
Richard F. Burton, The Book of the Sword, London 1884, page 133/134. Anton Dolleczek, Monographie der k. u. k. österr.-ung. Blanken und Handfeuer-Waffen, Wien 1896/Graz 1970, page 32/33.
Jacob, Armes blanches page 114/123.
Dietrich Menz, Handschar/Yatagan, Deutsches Waffenjournal, Schwäbisch Hall 1967, Nr. 4 page 270/272.
Anthony North, Islamic Arms, London 1985, page 24/26
Marija Sercer, Jatagani u Povijesnom Muzeju Hrvatske, Zagreb 1975
Turgay Tezcan, Silahar, Topkapi Sarayi Müzesi, Istanbul 1983, page 32/33, 35.
Yatagane aus dem Historischen Museum von Kroatien in Zagreb, Katalog
Graz 1976
Vejsil Curcic , Starinsko Oruzje, Sarajevo 1926
Đurđica Petrović;
- Balkansko oružje (XII-XIX v.) : izabrane studije ( Balkan weapons XII-XIX)
- Dubrovačko oružje u XIV veku ( weapons of Dubrovnik XIV century)
Mirsad Sijarcic, Hladno oružje iz Bosne i Hercegovine u arheologiji razvijenog i kasnog srednjeg vijeka (Cold-steel weapons from Bosnia and Herzegovina in the archaeology of the high and late mediaeval period) 2014
Milan Praunsperger. Oružje starih hrvata ( weapons of the old Croats), 1943
Balkans Arms , knives and daggers 18th-19th century by Tarik Kožo - , in 3 languages (!); Bosnian, German and English, 2010 Sarajevo
and also the publications in French, German and Austrian papers or books between 1850-1918 I mentioned in my post about Balkan and Bosnian cold weapons, like yataghans, bicaqs, kama's and cakija's like
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ook#post264299

[gp]

a nice book to read, not on cold weapons but real literature is by Milos Crnjanski (writer and poet, a Habsburg soldier WWI on the front in Galicia, later diplomat of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia in Berlin ), German title "Panduren", English "Migrations", Serbian "Seobe"

[Jim McDougall]

GP, thank you SO very much for these amazing titles and being so helpful with this important literature!
As you note, there is scant information on these Balkan weapons in the west, and many titles in these languages are not only hard to find, but to translate.

[gp]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

GP, thank you SO very much for these amazing titles and being so helpful with this important literature!
As you note, there is scant information on these Balkan weapons in the west, and many titles in these languages are not only hard to find, but to translate.

well "uncle"Jim and Interested Party ...as I was most happy to oblige, a "few" more titles of books and articles on this topic

[gp]

and the last couple....
happy reading !☼☼☼

[Interested Party]

GP I was rereading this bibliography and saw that I had neglected to thank you for sharing this wealth of information. It is much appreciated. I have goose egged on my title searches so for but now that I know what I am look for I will get lucky eventually. Thanks again.

[gp]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

GP I was rereading this bibliography and saw that I had neglected to thank you for sharing this wealth of information. It is much appreciated. I have goose egged on my title searches so for but now that I know what I am look for I will get lucky eventually. Thanks again.

happy to oblige and have been of some assistance ! You're welcome

[Pertinax]

I will add books on the topic yataghan

Э. Г. Аствацатурян Турецкое оружие в собрании Государственного Исторического музея

G. E. Vvedensky YANISSARI, History symbols weapons

Denis Cherevichnik To the Question of the Origin of Yatagan

[gp]

Originally Posted by Pertinax

I will add books on the topic yataghan

Э. Г. Аствацатурян Турецкое оружие в собрании Государственного Исторического музея

G. E. Vvedensky YANISSARI, History symbols weapons

Denis Cherevichnik To the Question of the Origin of Yatagan

Thnx a lot / bolshoj spassiba !

any advise where I can get Vvedensky's book ? searched worldwide in vain.....

Additional found on Cherevichnik Denis (2018). Ottoman yataghan: etymology and origin of the term. In: Collection of the scientific works of the International scientific and Practical conference “The world of weapons: stories, heroes, collections”. Tula State Museum of Weapons, October 3-5, 2018.

[Pertinax]

[QUOTE=gp;289982]Thnx a lot / bolshoj spassiba !

any advise where I can get Vvedensky's book ? searched worldwide in vain.....

Look at here

https://bookmarks.com.ua/en/products...-vvedenskij-ge

https://piterbooks.ru/read.php?sname...nissari&page=1