Maasai Laiyok seme

RomaRana · 30th April 2006, 11:37 PM

This specimen is an unusual seme due to the blade’s relatively short overall length of 13 1/2". The size suggests that this knife probably belonged to a younger uncircumcised Laiyok (youth) rather than a Moran. There is a photograph on an uncircumcised youth in Broken Spears with a very simmilar mini seme.

The dyed sheath is of the traditional Masai red and measures 9 ¾” long. This scabbard has the attributes of a larger transitional moran Seme with the winged mouth, wider belt loop, and metal disk fastener at the tip as well as Frankenstein stitching on the reverse. The metal disk seems to be glued in place with some sort of sap or wax adhesive.

Fullsize Moran Seme (top)
OAL-20 ¾”
Blade- 15 ¼”
Hilt-5 ¼”
Sheath-18”

Laiyok Seme:
Overall length- 13 ½”
Blade 8 ½”
Hilt- 5”
Sheath 9 ¾”

Luc LEFEBVRE · 1st May 2006, 04:48 PM

Nice "baby" knife, never see a small like this.
Here is mine with this inscription on the coin :"East africa & Uganda protectorates 1911" et "Georcivs V rexet ind : imp one cent". On the blade we can read :"Martindale, Birmingham, made in england” with a crocodile, “Regitered N° 1673”.
http://lulef.free.fr/html/_masai.html

Luc

Lew · 1st May 2006, 05:07 PM

Hi Guys

Here is a link to an old thread on simi knives from a few years back.

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001699.html

Lew

Tim Simmons · 1st May 2006, 07:29 PM

I think you will find that the red scabbard ones even with a midrib are a relatively modern adaptation. A picture of my older one.

tom hyle · 7th May 2006, 01:33 AM

What makes you think yours wasn't redder pre-patination? I've seen pretty old looking ones with remains of red dye in the rawhide; sometimes very faint remains. The association of red with Massai is an old thing. Another matter is that Massai do not, AFAIK traditionally make there own weapons (not s'posed to work iron), so I'm given to wonder about the relation or even identity of Massai weapons with neighboring peoples' the spears are certainly similar, and the swords bear a close resemblance to Watutsi ones (and a vague resemblance, unsurprisingly, to many African swords).

Tim Simmons · 7th May 2006, 10:45 AM

That's a good point Tom. Different peoples in the same region carry related weapons. Unfortunately all the photographs I have seen of warriors with the long type seme are in black and white and personally I cannot recall ever seeing one with a red stained scabbard. My own example has no trace of staining just being the natural tan of the hide. If someone can post a genuine older example with the modern red staining we are talking about, I will get a web cam and you can all watch me eat my hat or shoe or what ever?

An inexpensive but quite informative little book on fighting tribal people in East Africa, an area I find fascinating and rather overlooked is one of those Osprey Publishing, Men-at-arms booklets, number 411, warrior peoples of East Africa 1840-1900. Worth having as it is cheap and really does have good basic info.

RomaRana · 7th May 2006, 06:38 PM

Both maasai and kikuyu carry the seme the only difference being the kikuyu seme is slightly more pointed like yours. I was actually going to suggest yours was a kikuyu seme but the cowrie shell motif on the scabbard makes me think it is maasai.

I have an older style one with a coin dated from 1921 in a red scabbard. I will post pictures when I get home.

The oldest type is the long well made seme in the style you posted. That older style then breaks into around 3 subtypes.

The oldest is the style illustrated in Thompson's through maasai land. I have one which I purchased from Flavio. These date from around 1870-1890. This was during the most turbulent times for the maasai because of the rinderpest epidemic and the Lolikop wars. The style from this period often does not have a red scabbard.

The next subgroup almost have a mix of red and brown scabbards but the construction was very similar to the oldest style. The seme is still long but the materials are much better. These date from around 1900-1950 at the latest and they reflect a new period of prosperity because the maasai teamed up with the British during this period and were able to raid with their support. This period was also during the Maasai civil war.

The third long style is a kind of transitional hybrid. It has similar construction styles, particularly in sheath and hilt, with the smaller style I posted above. these date from around the 1950-1960's

RomaRana · 9th May 2006, 10:59 PM

1921 coin dated old long style seme in a red scabbard.

Tim Simmons · 10th May 2006, 07:57 AM

I thought I would start with a shoe, quite nice if a little tough and a triffle bland however the wine was good.

tom hyle · 12th May 2006, 10:35 PM

Actually, though perhaps of similar age and size, I see two somewhat distinct styles here; one more "swolen", perhaps more shaft-and-bladeish, and also the horns of the sheath much bigger, offhand (no time.....); regional/tribal/etc?..........

Tim Simmons · 12th May 2006, 11:04 PM

I am glad you mention that Tom. I have stopped eating shoe as I still do not think we are in the same time span. These two have coins on the scabbard. The smaller one 1927 the one with the belt 192?

There are many differences if one looks hard, the belt for instance has been formed not just cut hide and the general patina of the whole thing. Chalk and cheese

.

30th April 2006, 11:37 PM	#1
RomaRana Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 58	Maasai Laiyok seme This specimen is an unusual seme due to the blade’s relatively short overall length of 13 1/2". The size suggests that this knife probably belonged to a younger uncircumcised Laiyok (youth) rather than a Moran. There is a photograph on an uncircumcised youth in Broken Spears with a very simmilar mini seme. The dyed sheath is of the traditional Masai red and measures 9 ¾” long. This scabbard has the attributes of a larger transitional moran Seme with the winged mouth, wider belt loop, and metal disk fastener at the tip as well as Frankenstein stitching on the reverse. The metal disk seems to be glued in place with some sort of sap or wax adhesive. Fullsize Moran Seme (top) OAL-20 ¾” Blade- 15 ¼” Hilt-5 ¼” Sheath-18” Laiyok Seme: Overall length- 13 ½” Blade 8 ½” Hilt- 5” Sheath 9 ¾” Attached Images

1st May 2006, 07:29 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I think you will find that the red scabbard ones even with a midrib are a relatively modern adaptation. A picture of my older one. Attached Images

9th May 2006, 10:59 PM	#8
RomaRana Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 58	1921 coin dated old long style seme in a red scabbard. Attached Images

12th May 2006, 11:04 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I am glad you mention that Tom. I have stopped eating shoe as I still do not think we are in the same time span. These two have coins on the scabbard. The smaller one 1927 the one with the belt 192? There are many differences if one looks hard, the belt for instance has been formed not just cut hide and the general patina of the whole thing. Chalk and cheese . Attached Images

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1st May 2006, 04:48 PM	#2
Luc LEFEBVRE Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: France Posts: 472	Nice "baby" knife, never see a small like this. Here is mine with this inscription on the coin :"East africa & Uganda protectorates 1911" et "Georcivs V rexet ind : imp one cent". On the blade we can read :"Martindale, Birmingham, made in england” with a crocodile, “Regitered N° 1673”. http://lulef.free.fr/html/_masai.html Luc

1st May 2006, 05:07 PM	#3
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Hi Guys Here is a link to an old thread on simi knives from a few years back. http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001699.html Lew

7th May 2006, 01:33 AM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	What makes you think yours wasn't redder pre-patination? I've seen pretty old looking ones with remains of red dye in the rawhide; sometimes very faint remains. The association of red with Massai is an old thing. Another matter is that Massai do not, AFAIK traditionally make there own weapons (not s'posed to work iron), so I'm given to wonder about the relation or even identity of Massai weapons with neighboring peoples' the spears are certainly similar, and the swords bear a close resemblance to Watutsi ones (and a vague resemblance, unsurprisingly, to many African swords).

7th May 2006, 10:45 AM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	That's a good point Tom. Different peoples in the same region carry related weapons. Unfortunately all the photographs I have seen of warriors with the long type seme are in black and white and personally I cannot recall ever seeing one with a red stained scabbard. My own example has no trace of staining just being the natural tan of the hide. If someone can post a genuine older example with the modern red staining we are talking about, I will get a web cam and you can all watch me eat my hat or shoe or what ever? An inexpensive but quite informative little book on fighting tribal people in East Africa, an area I find fascinating and rather overlooked is one of those Osprey Publishing, Men-at-arms booklets, number 411, warrior peoples of East Africa 1840-1900. Worth having as it is cheap and really does have good basic info.

7th May 2006, 06:38 PM	#7
RomaRana Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 58	Both maasai and kikuyu carry the seme the only difference being the kikuyu seme is slightly more pointed like yours. I was actually going to suggest yours was a kikuyu seme but the cowrie shell motif on the scabbard makes me think it is maasai. I have an older style one with a coin dated from 1921 in a red scabbard. I will post pictures when I get home. The oldest type is the long well made seme in the style you posted. That older style then breaks into around 3 subtypes. The oldest is the style illustrated in Thompson's through maasai land. I have one which I purchased from Flavio. These date from around 1870-1890. This was during the most turbulent times for the maasai because of the rinderpest epidemic and the Lolikop wars. The style from this period often does not have a red scabbard. The next subgroup almost have a mix of red and brown scabbards but the construction was very similar to the oldest style. The seme is still long but the materials are much better. These date from around 1900-1950 at the latest and they reflect a new period of prosperity because the maasai teamed up with the British during this period and were able to raid with their support. This period was also during the Maasai civil war. The third long style is a kind of transitional hybrid. It has similar construction styles, particularly in sheath and hilt, with the smaller style I posted above. these date from around the 1950-1960's

10th May 2006, 07:57 AM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I thought I would start with a shoe, quite nice if a little tough and a triffle bland however the wine was good.

12th May 2006, 10:35 PM	#10
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Actually, though perhaps of similar age and size, I see two somewhat distinct styles here; one more "swolen", perhaps more shaft-and-bladeish, and also the horns of the sheath much bigger, offhand (no time.....); regional/tribal/etc?..........