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#1 |
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Hi
As Afghan/Khyber things seem to be to the fore at the moment I thought this may be of some interest. O.A. length 18 1/4 inches blade length 12 3/4 inches with bone scales. As you can see the sheath has seen better days. Regards, Norman. |
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#2 |
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Hi Norman
Good khyber knife! |
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#3 | |
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Hi, Thank you for your interest. I think this is probably a 19thc piece, have you any thoughts? My Regards, Norman. |
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#4 | |
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Hi. I think you're right and this is the middle - late 19th century |
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#5 |
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Hi Norman,
This is an honest khyber, no faking here. Regretfully those Pashtuns virtually never put the date on their weapons, and there are no objective features by which we can date them. So we can only look at the condition and guess. 1840? 1940? 1980? There are pics from the times of recent Russian occupation showing mujaheddins brandishing khybers. Field conditions determined everything. Fourty years of sun, rains,cold, heat are more than enough to age and degrade all organic materials. Yours has worn out scabbard, but the sword itself is in a very good condition and although blade was cleaned from patina, the bone handle is white.I wouldn’ t hazard a guess about its age, but it doesn’t matter much: it is a true fighter that was meant to kill, not to hang on a wall. Enjoy! Last edited by ariel; 28th September 2019 at 10:48 AM. |
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#6 |
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Hi Guys,
Thanks for your insights. I have attached a few more photos. The scales are not as white as they appear, more yellow in hand (my poor photography no doubt!) I have attached a photo that may give a better sense of scale. It's a big old knife more dirk sized. Thanks again. My Regards, Norman. |
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#7 |
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Hello Norman,
Looks like walrus to me... Elegant blade and length at the shorter range of the spectrum. Regards, Kai |
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#8 |
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I don’t think it is a walrus. It is very possible that it is a camel.
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#9 |
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Camel, horse, cow, but not walrus or elephant.
It is a Khyber, only short. Stone mentions blade length between 14-30". I have one ( wootz) with the blade of 11.5", one 16" and one 34.5". They were handmade and there were no prescribed dimensions. Whatever the owner wanted. The difference between them and ch'hura is that the latter has a sudden narrowing of the blade right at the ricasso and narrowing further to a needle point : ch'hura is a purely stabbing weapon, khyber ( selawa) is a slashing/stabbing one, kind of like a Bowie. You certainly can put it in a dirk category. |
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#10 |
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The surface of the camel's bone is covered with a dense grid of small parallel strokes. There are similar strokes on the bone surface of cows and buffaloes, but this grid is much wider.
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#11 |
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Ren Ren - funny name you have chosen - my name is Jens, but never mind.
What I would like to know is, why do you think is is from a camel? Could it not be from a cow, or from another animal? |
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#12 |
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Hi Jens! My own name is Sergey
![]() I do not insist that it is certainly a camel bone. To confirm this, I need to see the object with my own eyes. But looking at the photo it seemed to me that a dense grid of small parallel cracks is present. And I wanted to draw attention to this. First of all, the attention of the owner of this nice khyber knife. |
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#13 |
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1. I would test the blade for wootz.
2. Generally camel bone is the material of choice for hilts (but also for other artifacts) because it has higher density and is much less affected by the spongy structure of the cow/buffalo bone. |
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#14 |
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The blade looks well-polished and ready for etching: it will take very little time and effort and no harm will be done. Although I wouldn’t bet on finding wootz.
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#15 |
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Ren Ren - thanks for the explanation :-).
It is said that African ivory was prefered to Indian ivory, as it was harder, and camel bone would be even harder, but do you know if camel bone was used often for hilts? |
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#16 |
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Hi,
Some close-ups of the hilt which may help. Looking at the blade with a loupe I don't see anything to indicate to me that it might be wootz. Regards, Norman. |
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#17 |
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I agree it's not a walrus or an elephant, either. The handle is made of bone from the leg of a hoofed animal (cow, buffalo or camel)
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#18 |
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Even I can see that now - I am glad to say - but does anyone have a guess from which animal it could be?
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#19 | |
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I've a very fine wootz Choora named and dated to 1901 with a sheath in of similar manufacture... I personally find the weapons from the region the hardest to date accurately. Gavin |
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#20 | |
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I am a biologist by profession and work at the Museum of Natural History. One of the collections that I oversee (keep) in the museum is a collection of osteology (that is, a collection of bones) ![]() I wrote a guide to identify bones and horns in items (including on the handles edged weapons). If we are talking about the leg bone of an animal that was used in some kind of artifact (for example, a hilt), unfortunately, it is impossible to visually identify this animal to a species. But I like Ren Ren's idea of bone thickness. |
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#21 | |
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#22 | |
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They reinforced my opinion that the hilt of your knife is made of camel bone. |
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#23 | |
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![]() ![]() P. S. Mahratt spoke very modestly about himself. He is not only the curator of the collections of the Museum of Natural History, but also an expert whose help leading museums and government agencies seek. |
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#24 |
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Ren Ren, thank you for the explanation, which I find quite interesting.
I admit that I was guessing, when I wrote that camel bone was harder than ivory. |
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#25 | ||
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#26 |
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Arms and armour collectors are not stupid brutes in fact... interesting....
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#27 |
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I would like to correct anatomical error in the description of walrus tusk written in the book on identification of various osteological materials. The author calls the inner marbled ( oatmeal-like, granulated etc.) part of the tusk a " pulp". It is not a pulp. Pulp of any tooth is a soft living tissue located in the middle of the tooth and composed of arteries, veins, nerves and some supporting soft tissue. It is locates in the so-called " pulp cavity" that originates at the basis of the root and disappears completely well before the tip of the tooth. It provides nutrients to the cells lining the dentine that are responsible for tooth growth. When we have root canal procedure, the pulp is what is removed by our endodontists:-((( The jello-like consistency of the pulp makes it absolutely unsuitable for any practical use in the process of carving.
Walrus tusk is a modified canine tooth. Its outer layer is enamel, that is worn off at a very young age. Underneath is cementum, also thin and flaky material that is removed by the carver. The rest of the tusk consists of dentine and this part is used for carving purposes. The outer layer of the dentine is homogeneous (primary dentine) and the inner part ( secondary dentine or osteodentine) is exactly the one that is erroneously called " pulp" in the book. You can look it in the CITES book https://www.cites.org/sites/default/...vory-guide.pdf and in the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Services book https://www.fws.gov/lab/ivory_natural.php Also, a pic of the cut across the tusk:C- cementum, PD- primary dentine; SD - secondary dentine. Right in the center we can see a dark irregular structure, the final remnant of the pulp. Thus, when we discuss walrus ivory, let's use correct anatomical terminology. |
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#28 |
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Thank you very much for the valuable addition taken from the CITES website.
In Russian (and the book is written in Russian for Russian-speaking specialists), the inner (oatmeal-like, granulated etc.) at the same time, the hard part of the walrus fang is called "pulpa". If I decide to make an English version of my book on the definition of osteological materials, I will definitely describe the structure of the walrus fang, as is customary in the English scientific literature ![]() |
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#29 | |
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![]() ![]() For the sake of justice, I must say that I have met several such collectors. But they collected regular army items ![]() |
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#30 | |
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For your benefit I am attaching a slide from a Russian source with Latin names for different tooth components ( for the benefit of other Forumites). If you do not trust it, you can consult any Russian book on anatomy or dentistry or Google it in Russian. Just admit your goof, say thank you and that's it. The more you try to dig yourself out , the deeper you get. |
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