Origin of this Yataghan? (With pictures!)

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by sfenoid13

I am also surprised how all the respected and valued veteran members here easily get mad and argue for such a petty topic

If I'm in the lot, I'm definitively flattered!

I wasn't mad but let's say more disapointed because "the other member" is precisely a respected and valued veteran member...

Originally Posted by sfenoid13

this Yatagan is indeed Greek in origin. Of course the maker and owner was probably Ottoman Turkish.

Perfect demonstration that this Greek origin is a nonsense.
Where is the Greek if the maker is Ottoman Turkish and the user / owner Ottoman Tukish??

[sfenoid13]

Perfect demonstration that this Greek origin is a nonsense.
Where is the Greek if the maker is Ottoman Turkish and the user / owner Ottoman Tukish??
[/QUOTE]
The Greek is in region where this Ottoman Turkish owned and used his Yataghan. I am from Bulgaria, so is many generations of family, however I am not Bulgarian but rather Turkish. One of the many hundreds of thousand of Turks who were left behind when Ottoman Empire lost Bulgaria. Same happened with Greece. Bulgaria have tons of Yataghans , I have yet to see one Owens by a Slavic name, they are all inscribed to be owned by Turkish names, so are the makers. Same is true for “most” Greek yatagans too.

[kwiatek]

This probably comes too late, but all the marks posted here say “Mustafa”

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by kwiatek

This probably comes too late, but all the marks posted here say “Mustafa”

Very nice Greek name...

[ariel]

Ottoman Yataghans were assembled from mass-produced blades coming largely from Anatolia and Balkans ( Bosnia, mainly). Wherever they landed, their further fate was to fall into the hands of a local master who added the rest according to his local customs, tastes and traditions. This step defined the final product. That was the similar to the fate of other trade blades, such as Genoese, Styrian or generic Indian. Depending on the point of their final destination, they could be converted into Moroccan nimchas, Caucasian shashkas, Afghani pulwars, Mughals, Rajputs etc.


What is still original here is the blade ( generic “ Ottoman”) but a typical Greek/ Cretan crenellated niello silver tunkou/ Habaki- like appliqué at the root of the blade. That is all we have and all we can use in determining the ethnic origin of the final product.


How do we interpret it depends on our discretion. We can take the “path of the least resistance” that was used by Gozde Yasar, for whom everything yataghanish was “Ottoman, period”, or try and discern local decorative peculiarities. The latter would point toward Crete.

Finally, we are dealing not with certainties, but with probabilities. In a humongous and multiethnic Ottoman Empire nothing prevented a master of one ethnicity from using decorative technique of other people. That was a “ dime a dozen” approach in Imperial Russia with its multiethnic workshops geographically located in Tiflis and Vladikavkaz and spitting out thousands of “Caucasian” shashkas and kindjals of whatever ethnic pattern sold better at that moment or even creation of “Caucasian” - looking examples in St. Peterburg or Ukraine.

Perhaps the most accurate definition of that yataghan would be “ Ottoman in a Cretan style”.

[TVV]

If we classify swords and daggers according to the blades, then all the swords with triple fullered Solingen 19th century blades from the Sahel are German. Obviously, not a very good approach, and as has been discussed here the mounts are generally a much better indicator on where a weapon was used.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by TVV

If we classify swords and daggers according to the blades, then all the swords with triple fullered Solingen 19th century blades from the Sahel are German. Obviously, not a very good approach, and as has been discussed here the mounts are generally a much better indicator on where a weapon was used.

I totaly agree with you
200%
The problem is that for you silver + niello = Greek
when in fact it is Turkish Ottoman
But i won't try to change your mind...

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Kubur

I totaly agree with you
200%
The problem is that for you silver + niello = Greek
when in fact it is Turkish Ottoman
But i won't try to change your mind...

To be really honest with you if i refer to the yataghan posted at the very begining, i have to admit that it could be Greek also because very little survived from the original hilt... I still believe that some forum members have some problem to identify Turkish weapons, see post
http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24813

[ariel]

Well, if you think that all things Ottoman are Turkish, that would greatly simplify your provenancing :-)

[gp]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Very nice Greek name...

well quite some people in the Balkans during the Ottoman times converted to the new religion and hence took over the names accordingly.

Didn't that happen as well when Celts, Anglosaxons, Germanic, Baltic and Scandinavion regions and peoples were converted as well...?

So from a geographic point of view the name discussed might indeed be from an inhabitant of Greece.
Let's not forget after the Balkan Wars of 1911-1913 a lot of resettlement took place in quite some countries in South East Europe and with this quite some names which were present for four to six centuries.

Quite some edged weapons from Bosnia have the name Hassan on it, be it either the owner or maker's name....

And back on topic: the stamps / marks on the picture in cyrillic are the names Omar, Faruk, Rabomal Hasan, Rabomal Halu, Osman and Alu ( Alu being probably an elative case of Ali )

[kwiatek]

The maker's name in the mark is 'Mustafa'

[gp]

Some additional reading :

http://www.muzej-senj.hr/web/media/K...VO-GMS-web.pdf

http://www.muzej.mod.gov.rs/en/museu...n#.XsAnQMDgo2x

Some more visualisations (13 pictures actually from last year's exhibition) by the Bosnian institute in Sarajevo BiH :
https://www.klix.ba/magazin/kultura/...ozbi/180418111
Click on the foto to get access to all 13 pics

and a few from Livo: http://www.fmgg-livno.com/postavi/zb...-vojne-opreme/

By the way... Sarajevo or Sarajewo or also sometimes written in older books as Serajewo: the name originates form 2 Turkish words: Saray Bosna, meaning castle or fortress at (the river) Bosna.

Saray (Arabic: السراي‎; Turkish: sarayı, seray), with the variant saraya or seraya (السرايا), is a castle, palace or government building which was considered to have particular administrative importance in various parts of the former Ottoman Empire. Seray may also be spelt serail in English, via French influence, in which case the L is (in principle) silent. But has nothing to do with Seraglio.

Think also of Galatasaray, a most famous sportclub in Istambul,which name also derives from its ancient origin as a Celtic Castle!
Now one thinks basketketball and football ( or soccer for our American friends) but its meaning was simply Fortress of the Galats , where the Galats are Celts ! And later the neighbourhoodtook over this name...

FYI: As the Celtic tribes first went South from Poland in the past ( must have been around a couple of centuries BC) , they split up in West Europe ( NL- Belgium) into 3 directions:
West to England and later Wales and Eire.
South to Spain and North Africa (Morocco)
East along the Danube ( coins struck 200 B.C near Belgrade Serbia) to Turkey.
But that is altogether another story.

3 pictures / drawings are by Th. Valerio in "souvenirs d'un voyage chez les Slaves du Sud “ from 1868 by Georges Perrot.
the bearded gent is by unknown in an article "a travers la Bosnie-Herzegovine" dated 1896 by Guillaume Capus and the 5th “ Turkish warrior and Montenegrin” from 1904 Deutsche Alpenzeitung "Wanderungen durch Bosnien, die Hercegowina, Montenegro und Dalmatien."

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by gp

Saray (Arabic: السراي‎; Turkish: sarayı, seray), with the variant saraya or seraya (السرايا), is a castle, palace or government building which was considered to have particular administrative importance

Like topkapi saray

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by gp

well quite some people in the Balkans during the Ottoman times converted to the new religion and hence took over the names accordingly.

Hi
The problem was not about the blade origin or the blade maker but about the silver niello fittings that some members attribute to Greeks without any proof. And even maybe to Christian orthodox Greeks! Glups...
Of course we all know that Balkans were Ottoman provinces and partly Muslim.
We need more forum members from Turkey to balance a bit the knowledge from the Balkans to Turkey... And never forget that the Balkans were amongst the first provinces of the Ottoman empire so Greek means nothing before the Greek uprising...

[TVV]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi
The problem was not about the blade origin or the blade maker but about the silver niello fittings that some members attribute to Greeks without any proof. And even maybe to Christian orthodox Greeks! Glups...
Of course we all know that Balkans were Ottoman provinces and partly Muslim.
We need more forum members from Turkey to balance a bit the knowledge from the Balkans to Turkey... And never forget that the Balkans were amongst the first provinces of the Ottoman empire so Greek means nothing before the Greek uprising...

Maybe you need a Turkish forum, where the other members will agree with labeling everything from the Atlantic to the Pacific as Ottoman.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by TVV

Maybe you need a Turkish forum, where the other members will agree with labeling everything from the Atlantic to the Pacific as Ottoman.

This is the problem Ottoman is not Turkish;
and Turkish is not Ottoman, it's more complicated...
If the Balkans are from the Atlantic to the Pacific , then you are perfectly right.

Forget about the Greeks: if you talk about an "epirus style" for some daggers, pistols and swords then I'll agree.
But again it will depend of what you put under this tag.

[ariel]

By the way, in Russian, where a good chunk of its vocabulary is of Turkish ( not necessarily Ottoman, but much earlier, back to the Mongolian invasion) the word Sarai ( Сарай) designates not a castle but just a shed, like garden shed. Also, in a slightly modified meaning , “Sarai” is an unkempt, dirty and disorganized living space.

The “Ottoman” origin of all Yataghans in Russian literature was due to the inability of Soviet weapon historians ( such as Astvatsaturian) to visit foreign museums and to talk to foreign colleagues, especially in Yugoslavia: Tito was regarded as a traitor to the great Lenin-Stalin orthodoxy. Greece, after suppression of the communist putsch, was also out of bounds. And, since Bulgaria was “liberated” from the Ottomans by the Russian armies in the 19 century and every “non- Slavic” feature was regarded as Turkish. Thus, Astvatsaturian’s attribution of Ottoman weapons was grossly misinformed and fallacious. Not her fault: the realities of the closed and politicized nature of Communist regime(s).

Relatively recent Turkish books, such as the one by Gozde Yasar, perpetuate this narrow view: each and every yataghan there is labeled as Ottoman, with the unspoken implication of being Turkish. No attempt was made to pinpoint decorative features specific to their non-Anatolian origin.

Works of Marija Sercer from Zagreb were largely unknown and were not even cited in the above books. Only from a recent book by Dora Boskovic did we learn about Sercer’s major contributions.
First time I heard of Bulgarian weapon centers was from the Daskalov’s book.
And, finally, the role of Balkan centers was brought to the full view by Elgood.
All of them were published and widely available only after collapse of the Soviet Union and redrawing of the maps.

Sadly, politics and nationalism play major and destructive role in historical studies.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by ariel

First time I heard of Bulgarian weapon centers was from the Daskalov’s book.
And, finally, the role of Balkan centers was brought to the full view by Elgood.
All of them were published and widely available only after collapse of the Soviet Union and redrawing of the maps.

Sadly, politics and nationalism play major and destructive role in historical studies.

I cannot agree more.
Elgood's book revealed the central role of the Balkans in Ottoman weapon's production. Then we need a map: if you look at this map you will see that the Balkans were amongst the oldest parts of the Ottoman empire. What does it mean? Just that Balkans were Ottomans. The problem with Elgood's book is the title "Arms of Greece" and then many forum members see Greek weapons everywhere whereas in fact these weapons were produced by Albanians, Bosnian, Turkish...

[gp]

Originally Posted by ariel

By the way, in Russian, where a good chunk of its vocabulary is of Turkish ( not necessarily Ottoman, but much earlier, back to the Mongolian invasion) the word Sarai ( Сарай) designates not a castle but just a shed, like garden shed. Also, in a slightly modified meaning , “Sarai” is an unkempt, dirty and disorganized living space.

The “Ottoman” origin of all Yataghans in Russian literature was due to the inability of Soviet weapon historians ( such as Astvatsaturian) to visit foreign museums and to talk to foreign colleagues, especially in Yugoslavia: Tito was regarded as a traitor to the great Lenin-Stalin orthodoxy. Greece, after suppression of the communist putsch, was also out of bounds. And, since Bulgaria was “liberated” from the Ottomans by the Russian armies in the 19 century and every “non- Slavic” feature was regarded as Turkish. Thus, Astvatsaturian’s attribution of Ottoman weapons was grossly misinformed and fallacious. Not her fault: the realities of the closed and politicized nature of Communist regime(s).

Relatively recent Turkish books, such as the one by Gozde Yasar, perpetuate this narrow view: each and every yataghan there is labeled as Ottoman, with the unspoken implication of being Turkish. No attempt was made to pinpoint decorative features specific to their non-Anatolian origin.

Works of Marija Sercer from Zagreb were largely unknown and were not even cited in the above books. Only from a recent book by Dora Boskovic did we learn about Sercer’s major contributions.
First time I heard of Bulgarian weapon centers was from the Daskalov’s book.
And, finally, the role of Balkan centers was brought to the full view by Elgood.
All of them were published and widely available only after collapse of the Soviet Union and redrawing of the maps.

Sadly, politics and nationalism play major and destructive role in historical studies.

Correction; Josip Broz and Djilas were close allies of Djugasjvilli ...only later a shift took place, just before the death of the latter :
https://yuhistorija.com/int_relations_txt01c1.html

As for literature concerning the yataghan : this is all in the eye of the beholder.
After Austria’s or better the Habsburg occupation of Bosnia and Hercegowina in 1878, quite some and very valid information can be found (if one masters German) in many publications of “ Wissenschaftliche Mittheilungen aus Bosnien und der Hercegovina “ (= scientific notices ) published in Vienna between 1892/3 and 1916.

Also a lot of visitors to the Balkans between 1600 and 1900 did write about their travels with sometimes excellent descriptions and drawings of knives, kamas, bicaqs, yataghans.
And due to absence of copyright, legal downloads are available for free , also cheap reprints 22-30 Euro can be bought and the original books for “ the yataghan collector” can be found for a reasonable price .

[TVV]

Originally Posted by ariel

Relatively recent Turkish books, such as the one by Gozde Yasar, perpetuate this narrow view: each and every yataghan there is labeled as Ottoman, with the unspoken implication of being Turkish. No attempt was made to pinpoint decorative features specific to their non-Anatolian origin.

If we adopt Yasar's attribution logic, then Sami knives and kindjals made in Tbilisi in the 19th century are both Russian (or Romanov, if you wish), as those were all made in the Russian Empire. It is a logic that ignores the multi-ethnic nature and regional material culture variations of large empires.

[gp]

some more pics from the book "Starinsko Oruzje"( = old weapons) by Vejsil Curcic , Sarajevo 1926 and one from "la Bosnie l"Herzegovine" by plural writers under supervision of Louis Olivier, Paris 1901.

[gp]

and 3 scans from the occupation war in 1878

[gp]

from Bosnia itself a little about the yataghan:

http://h.etf.unsa.ba/btp/content/muz..._eng/about.htm

http://h.etf.unsa.ba/btp/content/muz..._eng/about.htm

[ariel]

Thanks, I was unaware of those publications.
However, none of them have been cited by Astvatsaturian or Yasar either.

As to your statement that Soviet-Yugoslav relations were rosy till the death of Stalin, please re-read your reference: already in 1948 USSR withdrew all her military and civilian advisers from Yugoslavia and in 1949 the antagonism between the two was already fully apparent. Stalin died in 1953.
But be it as it may, Astvatsaturian started her career in the early 50's, and by that time both Yugoslavia and Albania were de facto "traitors " of the Soviet ideology. Contacts with foreign countries were always very limited and difficult for Soviet citizens and collaborations with the " enemies" was practically unheard of. Soviet researchers worked in complete isolation. Add to that their almost universal inability to read and understand foreign languages together with very controlled and limited access to foreign publications even from major libraries, and the picture becomes even more grim.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by TVV

If we adopt Yasar's attribution logic, then Sami knives and kindjals made in Tbilisi in the 19th century are both Russian (or Romanov, if you wish), as those were all made in the Russian Empire. It is a logic that ignores the multi-ethnic nature and regional material culture variations of large empires.

Fully agree.

[gp]

Originally Posted by ariel

Thanks, I was unaware of those publications.
However, none of them have been cited by Astvatsaturian or Yasar either.

You're welcome! Actually this tells more about Astvatsaturian or Yasar...
Although language might also be one botttleneck or showstopper.

But a lot of info (of which many are unaware about untill ones visits the places) can be found locally in Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Greece, Kosovo, Montenegro, Macedonia, Romania and Serbia .


And by the way.... Greek or not to be ( Greek) ?

They all are copies from....

the ILLYRIAN SIKA ☺☼☺

Etymology: Possibly from Proto-Albanian *tsikā (whence Albanian thikë, "dagger, knife"), from Proto-Indo-European *ḱey- ("to sharpen") possibly via Illyrian.
- According to Dictionnaire des Antiquités Grecques et Romaines the name Sica comes from Proto-Indo-European root sek-, meaning "to cut", "to section", however De Vaan declares any connection to Proto-Indo-European *sek- to be formally impossible.

source: Albanian Archaeology 10 August 2019 ·

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by gp

They all are copies from....

the ILLYRIAN SIKA ☺☼☺

Etymology: Possibly from Proto-Albanian *tsikā (whence Albanian thikë, "dagger, knife"), from Proto-Indo-European *ḱey- ("to sharpen") possibly via Illyrian.
·

You are a bit too much Albanian centered...

I will stay with the Greek kopis, same kind of weapon, same period 5 -4 BC, same area...

[gp]

Originally Posted by Kubur

You are a bit too much Albanian centered...

I will stay with the Greek kopis, same kind of weapon, same period 5 -4 BC, same area...

birds of a feather....

but as the Cellts passed through along the Danube...

might the origin not be a Celtic faceta...?

[gp]

jokes aside...

a legal download althoug I am aware that not everybody can read (Serbian) cyrillic, but worthwile nevertheless and recommendable;

"cold weapons of the Ottoman Turcish era: 15-19th century"

https://dlscrib.com/queue/hladno-oru...0d60b4272bb181

another legal download in English from an earlier era :

https://www.academia.edu/496513/Medi...o_Aleksi%C4%87



and some nice pics of an exhibition in Sarajevo:
http://www.novigradsarajevo.ba/news/...1522290?page=4

[TVV]

Originally Posted by gp

the ILLYRIAN SIKA ☺☼☺

You call it Illyrian, I call it Thracian, someone in Romania would probably call it Dacian...