Oakeshott type XIIIa sold at christies 1984.

Cerjak · 21st July 2016, 01:42 PM

Oakeshott type XIIIa sold at christies 1984.
This sword is illustrated in “sword in hand” as a type 13a fig 69 and the same fig 83 as a type XIIA .
It seems to be the same sword.
May be somebody has explanation for it and also may be better pictures from both swords.

Best

CERJAK

Lee · 21st July 2016, 02:52 PM

Well, clearly the same sword. I did not see it pictured in the Christie's London 1984 catalogs upon quick perusal. Sword in Hand was a nicely cleaned up version of a series of articles in The Gun Report that represented an updating of material from The Archaeology of Weapons. Looking at the original magazine the caption for what becomes fig. 83 is "A typical sword of Type XIIIA"; the next illustration of another sword gives the Burrell collection attribution in both versions (magazine and book). The same sword shows up again in Records (XIIIa 12) as "Collection: Private".

Reventlov · 21st July 2016, 03:19 PM

There are a lot of confusing references and captions in Oakeshott's books unfortunately...

This particular sword came up for auction a few years ago, and I believe it has made its way into the collection of a fellow forum member. The photo is from the recent exhibition in Solingen.

The lot number is 119; as it happens, lot 120 is also shown in Sword in Hand as fig. 14.

http://www.thomasdelmar.com/Catalogu...209/page4.html

Lee · 21st July 2016, 06:17 PM

Description from Thomas Del Mar sale (9 Dec 2009):[/I]

Quote:

A COMPOSITE MEDIEVAL GREAT SWORD, CIRCA 1270-1320
in excavated condition, with broad flat near parallel-edged blade tapering to a blunt point, formed with a pair of fullers over almost half of its length and cut with a latten-filled heart and cross mark on each side (the latten with losses), iron hilt comprising a pair of 16th century straight tapering quillons of circular section, and slightly compressed wheel pommel, and later fabric-bound grip
98cm; 38 1/2in blade

Provenance
Christie, Manson & Woods, 20th July 1983, lot 27[I]

Not described as 'composite' in the 1983 catalog or in the Sword - Form and Thought catalog where it is #18 and passes Peter Johnsson's proportional measurements.

So the attribution to Burrell Collection was a typo and the sale date was a year earlier.

Cerjak · 21st July 2016, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reventlov

There are a lot of confusing references and captions in Oakeshott's books unfortunately...

This particular sword came up for auction a few years ago, and I believe it has made its way into the collection of a fellow forum member. The photo is from the recent exhibition in Solingen.

The lot number is 119; as it happens, lot 120 is also shown in Sword in Hand as fig. 14.

http://www.thomasdelmar.com/Catalogu...209/page4.html

Hello Reventlov
Thank you very much for the quick answer .this blade with 2 fullers is very similar than my sword Medieval sword of type XIII A with with latten-inlaid decorations
Best
Cerjak

Cerjak · 21st July 2016, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee

Description from Thomas Del Mar sale (9 Dec 2009):[/I]

Not described as 'composite' in the 1983 catalog or in the Sword - Form and Thought catalog where it is #18 and passes Peter Johnsson's proportional measurements.

So the attribution to Burrell Collection was a typo and the sale date was a year earlier.

Hello Lee
Thank you for this extra information
Best
Cerjak

Reventlov · 22nd July 2016, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerjak

Thank you very much for the quick answer .this blade with 2 fullers is very similar than my sword Medieval sword of type XIII A with with latten-inlaid decorations

No problem! It is definitely an important comparison for your sword. It can also be added to the list of swords with the heart-over-cross mark; the mark is just visible at the bottom of the photo.

cornelistromp · 23rd July 2016, 11:51 AM

Jean-Luc,

as you probably know, the sword is in my collection, I think I already posted a thread about this sword! please look under threads cornelistromp.

what do you exactly want to know?

best,
jasper

ps it was on loan to the Klingenmuseum in Solingen last year.

ah here is my thread from 2009;

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11231

Cerjak · 23rd July 2016, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

Jean-Luc,

as you probably know, the sword is in my collection, I think I already posted a thread about this sword! please look under threads cornelistromp.

what do you exactly want to know?

best,
jasper

ps it was on loan to the Klingenmuseum in Solingen last year.

ah here is my thread from 2009;

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11231

Hi jasper
I have never seen your post from 2009 before and It was only when reading the comments from Lee and Reventlov that I understood that you are the lucky owner of this beautifull sword.I have been looking for pictures for this sword because the pictures "In sword In hand "are realy poor to compare blade ,quillions
And latten with my sword.
Both swords are with similar blade geometry with double fuller over nearly half its length also the latten-inlaid a an heart mark and at last a straight quillons of circular section with trumpet-shaped terminals
So it would be interesting to see this two swords together .
Best
Jean-Luc

cornelistromp · 24th July 2016, 12:55 PM

Hi Jean Luc,

yes of course we can do that some day.

best,
Jasper

21st July 2016, 02:52 PM	#2
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 914	The mystery continues Well, clearly the same sword. I did not see it pictured in the Christie's London 1984 catalogs upon quick perusal. Sword in Hand was a nicely cleaned up version of a series of articles in The Gun Report that represented an updating of material from The Archaeology of Weapons. Looking at the original magazine the caption for what becomes fig. 83 is "A typical sword of Type XIIIA"; the next illustration of another sword gives the Burrell collection attribution in both versions (magazine and book). The same sword shows up again in Records (XIIIa 12) as "Collection: Private".

21st July 2016, 03:19 PM	#3
Reventlov Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 132	There are a lot of confusing references and captions in Oakeshott's books unfortunately... This particular sword came up for auction a few years ago, and I believe it has made its way into the collection of a fellow forum member. The photo is from the recent exhibition in Solingen. The lot number is 119; as it happens, lot 120 is also shown in Sword in Hand as fig. 14. http://www.thomasdelmar.com/Catalogu...209/page4.html Attached Images

23rd July 2016, 11:51 AM	#8
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	Jean-Luc, as you probably know, the sword is in my collection, I think I already posted a thread about this sword! please look under threads cornelistromp. what do you exactly want to know? best, jasper ps it was on loan to the Klingenmuseum in Solingen last year. ah here is my thread from 2009; http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11231 Last edited by cornelistromp; 23rd July 2016 at 12:23 PM.

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21st July 2016, 01:42 PM	#1
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	Oakeshott type XIIIa sold at christies 1984. Oakeshott type XIIIa sold at christies 1984. This sword is illustrated in “sword in hand” as a type 13a fig 69 and the same fig 83 as a type XIIA . It seems to be the same sword. May be somebody has explanation for it and also may be better pictures from both swords. Best CERJAK Attached Images

24th July 2016, 12:55 PM	#10
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	Hi Jean Luc, yes of course we can do that some day. best, Jasper