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#1 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Germany
Posts: 95
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Hello all,
I recently impulse-bought this shamshir on Ebay for probably too much money, and now I don't quite know what to make of it. The seller classified it as Afghan, due to the thick blade, multi-fullering and the punched out circles at the forte, some of which have residual inlays of yellow metal. The blade shows a stripey wootz pattern in some areas. At the base of the spine there seems to be a repaired delamination crack. Now the hilt is where it gets weird. The handguard is glued solidly to the tang without any movement. On one side the guard seems to have been repaired. I think the guard is actually made of a very fine grained crystalline wootz, but I don't know if that comes out in the photos. There are 2 handle scales on each side, the upper ones look like walrus ivory I think. The lower ones are not symmetrical. One could be black horn I think, the other rather looks like wood and has a wide crack filled with adhesive, which covers the upper languet (?). I knew that the handle scales and pommel cap were loose, when I bid on the sword, planning to have it professionally restored. What I didn't realize is that more than half of the tangband is broken off, and the handle scales are not glued to the tang at all, so you can actually look inside the hilt. It seems the tang was broken off at one point and a thinner tang was welded laterally to the original one. This secondary tang is bent to one side, so that one of the handle scales sticks out at an angle, the lower rivet on this scale is of course cut off, the lower rivet on the other side is lost. The last strange thing is that the welded on tang is actually too long, because the pommel cap, which is riveted to it, doesn't actually cover the upper part of the handle scales at all. So I'm at a loss as to what I actually have before me now. Some hack repair attempt gone awry? A composite? The way it is barely holding together now, even with the second tang unbent, would still not be a functional assembly as I see it. Secondly is there any hope of fixing this, and if so, can you recommend an experienced restorer, whom I could approach for this task? I eagerly await any insights and advice you can offer Kind regards Gernot |
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#2 |
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Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 363
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This project looks like a real basket case to me!
I do not think it's possible to execute a sympathetic restoration. Your time involvement will build incrementally to the point where you'll have more "sweat equity" invested in it than it may be worth. I would carefully disassemble it completely. Study each piece carefully and decide whether it can be fixed or discarded and replaced. Once all of the small bits have been organized and planned, I would tackle the tang first. Without it being properly repaired, it would be difficult to proceed any further. Refit the bits to the tang but do your best to maintain patina. Good luck. |
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#3 |
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Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Austria
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Hello,
The blade might be wootz but the delamination and the pattern in your photo seems to indicate more towards pattern welded. I think the original scales were walrus ivory, but then when the tang broke, the scales broke off as well and only some parts were recovered, while the lost parts were crudely replaced with horn or whatever it is. But this is only my opinion. Now if I were you, I would try to have it restored and have some new bone scales installed. But should check the material of the blade first, to make sure it is worth it. You should be able to tell whether the blade is of wootz or it is pattern welded by examinng it with a magnifying glass or trying some local polishing and etching. Regards, Marius PS: I wouldn't try this myself and let a somebody skilled to do the restauration. Unfortunately, the only person I know doing this kind of work is based in the UK and you don't want to add shipping and taxation to what you may have to pay for the repairs. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 19th July 2016 at 04:59 PM. |
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#4 |
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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As always hard to judge from photos, but what you have looks like a beat up but fairly standard shamshir. Riveting a stub tang to a flat plate with the profile of the hilt is the normal construction for these. Two piece grip scales are not unknown either. It all depends on what you paid for it.
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#5 | |||
Member
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Germany
Posts: 95
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Also browsing through the catalogue there were many shamshir handles on which the pommel caps didn't cover the handle scales, but there is a noticeable gap filled up with adhesive. So this could be the original hilt assembly after all. This begs the question of why is there no trace of adhesive above the guard? |
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#6 |
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,870
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While this may indeed be a 'basket case', as more historian than 'collector' or connoisseur, I always admire these battered old cases as old warriors who are in my opinion well worthy of restorative attention .
In my view, items should be 'stabilized' with as much use or repair of existing components as feasible. The damage and age found in these kinds of weapons to me stand as 'history' and literally untouched much in the sense of archaeologic discoveries. Perhaps a 'romantic' view admittedly, but I think profoundly valid. This appears to me to potentially a Persian shamshir which found use in the volatile frontiers of Afghanistan and India's northwest frontiers in the latter 19th century. The unusual lanyard ring on the pommel as well as the four dot devices emplaced in the blade are what suggests this to me. Not only worthy of necessary restoration, but continued research, as well exemplified by one of our long esteemed members who made a long running thread very much a group effort as he restored a 'basket case tulwar' from these regions. I always think of Philip Tom for the restoration and authentic stabilization of these kinds of weapons. There is history here, and that is not measured monetarily. |
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#7 | |
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Join Date: Jun 2015
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Regards Miguel |
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#8 |
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Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Austria
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After seeing the last photos, I am more convinced it is pattern welded, but very fine structure, somehow similar to the Hada on Japanese swords.
A very good blade! Last edited by mariusgmioc; 19th July 2016 at 09:51 PM. |
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#9 | |
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,870
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Mariusgmioc, it is a very good blade, which is why I suggested Philip, who is a master with these kinds of blades and refinishing, and well known in our community. |
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#10 | |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Germany
Posts: 95
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Thanks for you comment Jim, you captured my feelings on this issue really well. This sword somehow really speaks to me, and though I wouldn't say cost is no issue at all, I do not see this as a financial investment. I'd love to ask peter, since I've seen some examples of of his work. But this issue http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21422 makes me a little hesitant to ship to the US. I've received some other suggestions per private message, which I think I will try first. |
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#11 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Germany
Posts: 525
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I have made very well experiences with a professional restorer in Olbernhau (not me!). He restored my Yatagan perfectly. Roland |
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#12 |
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Join Date: Jan 2012
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Just a suggestion, but could it be a blade from a tulwar modified with a shamshir style hilt to make it saleable in the Arab market?
Regards Richard |
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#13 | |
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Location: Germany
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A good idea. I think this blade is from early to mid 19th century. Persian blades of this period were normally more massive. More like a Kilij or the british 1796 light cavalry pattern than this blade. |
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#14 | |
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Location: Austria
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In my view, the characteristic Tulwar blade has less curvature and is wider than the shamshir blade. |
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#15 | |
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Location: Kuwait
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#16 | |
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Location: Germany
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As for the tulwar vs. shamshir debate, that may well be, I've seen lots of shamshir blades mounted on tulwar hilts, but the tang on this sword is actually still pretty long, the exposed part is already close to 8 cm, and the tangs of tulwar blades I have seen so far have been a lot shorter. Intestingly the sword feels quite hefty in the hand. The balance point is down about a third of the length of the blade and the spine is quite thick with about 6 mm until very close to the tip. So I was quite suprised when it weighed in at only 750 grams. |
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#17 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
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the upper scales are for sure walrus ivory, what are used by the lower parts I can't say from your pictures. The restoration will be a challenge but is possible and IMHO worth the effort. Maybe contact Roland, I've seen the yat restoration, very good. An other option will be a restorer you can find here: http://www.bfn.de/0305_sachverstaend...ller%5D=Expert Best regards, Detlef |
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#18 |
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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The ring on the side of the pommel cap reminds me of something. I think if you search the forum you will find it diagnostic of it's origin.
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#19 |
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You mean the Baloch or Sindhi ones we have discussed recently?
That was exactly what I thought the moment I saw the very first pic:-))))) |
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#20 | |
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