East Indian Ceremonial Weapon Identification Help

DawnST · 31st May 2016, 09:45 PM

Hello!

I was hoping someone on this forum could help me identify the blade in the pictures below.

All that is known of this object is that it is an East Indian ceremonial piece that once had a shaft attached to the conical end. The entire object is about 50.5 cm in length, and the “clock hands” are about 13cm. There are varied serrations on both sides of the main blade, which is made out of an iron alloy. The two smaller blades attached below the dramatic curve are able to pivot around what appears to be a mechanism put in place to repair the original piece (newer pivot piece is shiny and crude). These movable blades also bear significant stamped designs: x’s, o’s, and crescents. Additionally, there are purposeful holes on the main blade at the end of the curve farthest from the pair of smaller blades that could have possibly houses a latch or other locking device for the small blades. Additional designs to note on this curious blade are the twisted patterns encircling the base just above the conical feature.

After gathering some research and opinions, I believe this piece was the end of a spear or javelin and primarily used as a status symbol rather than a functional weapon. Although there is no concrete evidence, the original 1918 Scott & D’Shaughnessy, Inc. auction house catalog the object was described in suggests the object is late 16th to early 17th century.

Any and all thoughts and references would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks.

CharlesS · 1st June 2016, 01:35 PM

If this one is old, it looks like a law enforcement "crowd control/criminal hook" to me, and not a combat weapon. I am not sure about the age, however, so perhaps someone else can chime in on that. I also do not get the purpose the the moving "scissor" blades. They look like an afterthought, or later add-on to me.

Jens Nordlunde · 1st June 2016, 06:07 PM

I don know what it could be, but I have a few questions.

The 'scissors' dont seem to be sharp - are they?

To me it seems as if the 'scissors' can be moved further up, so that the cut out on the 'scissors' can rest on the upper part - is it so?

ariel · 1st June 2016, 08:35 PM

I looked and looked.... and couldn't fathom any practical use for it.
Reminds me for some reasons of the previously discussed allegedly Spanish sword for cutting the hamstrings of the French heavy cavalry horses ( and, likely, at the time of peace and harmony between the nations, for mowing the grass:-)))

There are some implements that are simply impenetrable to our wildest imagination. I can just shrug the shoulders and pronounce it a souvenir....
Please prove me wrong!

CharlesS · 1st June 2016, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I looked and looked.... and couldn't fathom any practical use for it.
Reminds me for some reasons of the previously discussed allegedly Spanish sword for cutting the hamstrings of the French heavy cavalry horses ( and, likely, at the time of peace and harmony between the nations, for mowing the grass:-)))

There are some implements that are simply impenetrable to our wildest imagination.

Good point Ariel...another possibility, if, indeed, it has a legit use.

Kubur · 1st June 2016, 10:30 PM

Pffff you understand nothing, it's an Indian Swiss knife
They call that Leatherman in US...

Timo Nieminen · 1st June 2016, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DawnST

“clock hands”

Maybe they are clock hands. The guard carries this weapon, with the clock hands set to the time the boss will next be seeing people.

Not likely in a non-clock-carrying culture. Could still be used for signalling/communication (like semaphore).

ariel · 2nd June 2016, 03:19 AM

A distant analog of Alam?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 2nd June 2016, 12:04 PM

The staff which appears to be iron is designed to be hammered into the ground...Is this a launch device for the famous Tipu Sultan Rocket warfare? Some Boffin can perhaps work out the two aiming devices...pointers ... so that stuck at a certain angle the rockets would arrive at the target in a known range bracket... An early rocket launcher. ...

DaveA · 2nd June 2016, 07:31 PM

Quote:

The staff which appears to be iron is designed to be hammered into the ground...Is this a launch device for the famous Tipu Sultan Rocket warfare? Some Boffin can perhaps work out the two aiming devices...pointers ... so that stuck at a certain angle the rockets would arrive at the target in a known range bracket... An early rocket launcher. ...

A very intriguing suggestion, Ibrahim!

The challenge for an early artillery soldier would be to place a rocket launcher into the ground at the precise angle and orientation needed to have some assurance of hitting a target. Rockets have propellant and cannonballs do not, but in both cases the trajectories are based on simple geometry. Today, we use math and get the pointing solutions. Back then?

Caution: pure speculation follows!

This might be a calculator, used to direct rocket artillery fire.

See the photo attached for one possible illustration of how it might work.

Presumably the scissors do not move now, but perhaps they did at one point. I speculate that these are used to help position the pole in the ground to achieve the a ballistic trajectory appropriate to the distance to target. The device would first require calibration. Once this is complete, the scissors are fixed in place. This would only work for a single known charge of powder in the cannon or a rocket.

Alternatively, if the scissor do move, then perhaps the gears/notches help position the scissors for different munitions. :

:
The instruction manual is probably lost to history.

Once correctly positioned in the ground, the device serves as an indicator for soldiers to copy as they position the actual rockets. This device itself does not seem appropriate as a launcher. Chances are that there are very few of these but lots of rockets.

Just a thought!

DawnST · 15th June 2016, 09:22 PM

Thank you for all the thoughtful responses! I certainly have many more avenues to explore now than I did when I originally got the object. Hopefully further research on your ideas will yield some good results!

Jens Nordlunde - The "scissors" are not sharp, but are blunt and almost squared off. They are able to move along their pivots. The pins the "scissors" rotate on protrude from the main blade about 1cm on each side, making it so the moving blades cannot rest on the main blade itself.

31st May 2016, 09:45 PM	#1
DawnST Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 3	East Indian Ceremonial Weapon Identification Help Hello! I was hoping someone on this forum could help me identify the blade in the pictures below. All that is known of this object is that it is an East Indian ceremonial piece that once had a shaft attached to the conical end. The entire object is about 50.5 cm in length, and the “clock hands” are about 13cm. There are varied serrations on both sides of the main blade, which is made out of an iron alloy. The two smaller blades attached below the dramatic curve are able to pivot around what appears to be a mechanism put in place to repair the original piece (newer pivot piece is shiny and crude). These movable blades also bear significant stamped designs: x’s, o’s, and crescents. Additionally, there are purposeful holes on the main blade at the end of the curve farthest from the pair of smaller blades that could have possibly houses a latch or other locking device for the small blades. Additional designs to note on this curious blade are the twisted patterns encircling the base just above the conical feature. After gathering some research and opinions, I believe this piece was the end of a spear or javelin and primarily used as a status symbol rather than a functional weapon. Although there is no concrete evidence, the original 1918 Scott & D’Shaughnessy, Inc. auction house catalog the object was described in suggests the object is late 16th to early 17th century. Any and all thoughts and references would be greatly appreciated! Thanks. Attached Images

1st June 2016, 08:35 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I looked and looked.... and couldn't fathom any practical use for it. Reminds me for some reasons of the previously discussed allegedly Spanish sword for cutting the hamstrings of the French heavy cavalry horses ( and, likely, at the time of peace and harmony between the nations, for mowing the grass:-))) There are some implements that are simply impenetrable to our wildest imagination. I can just shrug the shoulders and pronounce it a souvenir.... Please prove me wrong! Attached Images

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1st June 2016, 01:35 PM	#2
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	If this one is old, it looks like a law enforcement "crowd control/criminal hook" to me, and not a combat weapon. I am not sure about the age, however, so perhaps someone else can chime in on that. I also do not get the purpose the the moving "scissor" blades. They look like an afterthought, or later add-on to me.

1st June 2016, 06:07 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I don know what it could be, but I have a few questions. The 'scissors' dont seem to be sharp - are they? To me it seems as if the 'scissors' can be moved further up, so that the cut out on the 'scissors' can rest on the upper part - is it so?

1st June 2016, 10:30 PM	#6
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Pffff you understand nothing, it's an Indian Swiss knife They call that Leatherman in US...

2nd June 2016, 03:19 AM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	A distant analog of Alam?

2nd June 2016, 12:04 PM	#9
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	The staff which appears to be iron is designed to be hammered into the ground...Is this a launch device for the famous Tipu Sultan Rocket warfare? Some Boffin can perhaps work out the two aiming devices...pointers ... so that stuck at a certain angle the rockets would arrive at the target in a known range bracket... An early rocket launcher. ...

15th June 2016, 09:22 PM	#11
DawnST Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 3	Thank you for all the thoughtful responses! I certainly have many more avenues to explore now than I did when I originally got the object. Hopefully further research on your ideas will yield some good results! Jens Nordlunde - The "scissors" are not sharp, but are blunt and almost squared off. They are able to move along their pivots. The pins the "scissors" rotate on protrude from the main blade about 1cm on each side, making it so the moving blades cannot rest on the main blade itself.