When in India "died" wootz?

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Science and Civilisation in China: Vol. 5, Chemistry and chemical technology ; Pt. 11, Ferrous metallurgy, Volume 5; Volume 11, by Joseph Needham, 2008.

Tell me, please, the page number, where there is a piece of text that you have shown.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mahratt

Tell me, please, the page number, where there is a piece of text that you have shown.

Around p265, so how do we know exactly what captain Massalski wrote, is there a translation of his work?

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Around p265, so how do we know exactly what captain Massalski wrote, is there a translation of his work?

Thank you, I found page 265 and the text you show. The author is not sure what were the borders of Persia in the middle of the 19th century, therefore, it assumes that we are talking about wootz steel smelting in Central Asia. In fact Masalsky not indicate in his article the exact location of their observations. But several times he speaks of "the Persians". I think the Russian officer and ethnographer hardly confuse Uzbek with Persian.

I do not know whether there translation into English of the article Masalsky ... I have his article in Russian. If you want, I can send it to you by e-mail.

[mahratt]

Colleagues, I have found one historical source of the mid-19th century (art Masalsky 1841), where we are talking about wootz. But it turns out that this historical source says that in the middle of the 19th century has been wootz smelted.
Surely no one knows the English historical sources 19th century on this topic ...

[ariel]

It is virtually impossible to place captain Massalsky in the vicinity of Central Asian Khanates. In the 1830s both British and Russians were totally impotent to establish a foothold there. Travelers, spies and diplomats were thrown into dungeons and publicly beheaded: remember Stoddard and Conolly. Russians were treated no better. Massalsky wouldn't stand a chance of ever bringing any information back. Only after Russian conquest of Central Asian Khanates, building a railroad for quick transportation of troops, series of brutal repressions and actual demilitarization of the area ( while keeping local Khans in a semblance of power) could anybody " come and observe". But that was after ~ 1865.

On the other hand, both nations openly competed in Iran, with military instructors hired by the Persians, diplomatic missions legally establishes, bribes given and accepted on a daily basis etc,

Once again: Peter Hopkirk's "The Great Game". Set a weekend aside, find a comfy chair, a bottle of a single malt and enjoy the ride!

[ariel]

It is hopeless to attempt establishing the exact time of "disappearance of Wootz". Skills do not die on a particular date, they just wither.

Nobody would argue with a proposition that wootz was still manufactured in India and forged into blades in the middle of the 19th century. Just it was not as intensive as in the middle of the 18th or even in the first half of the 19th. From there on, wootz went into a free fall, and for a multiplicity of reasons ( see above) by the end of the 19th century its production as well as manufacture of wootz blades came to a screeching halt. Could there have been an occasional example of a newly-made blade? Yea... But that was just a proverbial " one swallow" of no practical or historical significance.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

It is virtually impossible to place captain Massalsky in the vicinity of Central Asian Khanates. In the 1830s both British and Russians were totally impotent to establish a foothold there. Travelers, spies and diplomats were thrown into dungeons and publicly beheaded: remember Stoddard and Conolly. Russians were treated no better. Massalsky wouldn't stand a chance of ever bringing any information back. Only after Russian conquest of Central Asian Khanates, building a railroad for quick transportation of troops, series of brutal repressions and actual demilitarization of the area ( while keeping local Khans in a semblance of power) could anybody " come and observe". But that was after ~ 1865.

Masalsky, judging by his article (and the constant mention of the Persians) was in Persia. But, no need to dramatize the situation in Central Asia (eg in Bukhara).

In 1820 - 1821 years, captain of the Russian army E.K.Meyendorf visited the Emirate of Bukhara . After the expedition, he wrote a book: The Journey from Orenburg to Bukhara.

In 1842, merchant and explorer Khanykov traveled to Bukhara Khanate. His book was published in 1843: "The description of the Bukhara khanate."

You know the Russian language, as I remember? Then you can easily read this book.

If anyone is yet interested, this book was created and in English: "Bokhara, its amir and its people". Translated by the baron Clement A. de Bode. London, 1851.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

It is hopeless to attempt establishing the exact time of "disappearance of Wootz". Skills do not die on a particular date, they just wither.

Nobody would argue with a proposition that wootz was still manufactured in India and forged into blades in the middle of the 19th century. Just it was not as intensive as in the middle of the 18th or even in the first half of the 19th. From there on, wootz went into a free fall, and for a multiplicity of reasons ( see above) by the end of the 19th century its production as well as manufacture of wootz blades came to a screeching halt. Could there have been an occasional example of a newly-made blade? Yea... But that was just a proverbial " one swallow" of no practical or historical significance.

I agree that in your words - a lot of the correct. But it is your personal reasoning. I wonder more. I guess I'm not very well expressed his thought in previous messages. Forgive me for my bad English.

I'm curious to know:
1) Is there any historical sources (messages travelers of the 19th century, for example), who argue that in the mid-19th century, the production of wootz steel in India has stopped.
2) whether there are documents that say that in India in the 19th century, banned the production of wootz steel.

I would be grateful if you answer these my questions.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mahratt

Thank you, I found page 265 and the text you show. The author is not sure what were the borders of Persia in the middle of the 19th century, therefore, it assumes that we are talking about wootz steel smelting in Central Asia. In fact Masalsky not indicate in his article the exact location of their observations. But several times he speaks of "the Persians". I think the Russian officer and ethnographer hardly confuse Uzbek with Persian.

I do not know whether there translation into English of the article Masalsky ... I have his article in Russian. If you want, I can send it to you by e-mail.

P.M. sent. Is there any evidence that Masalsky was actually in Persia, I find evidence that he was in Bukhara which has a long Persian history. Another problem when discussing this subject, unless you specifically say "watered steel" you do not know exactly what someone is referring to when they say "crucible steel, wootz, bulat, damascus steel" etc, these terms can and do mean different things to different people and the terms have changed over time. We tend to think of "crucible steel" as being "watered steel" but an object can be made from crucible steel and yet not show any sign of watering.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mahratt

I agree that in your words - a lot of the correct. But it is your personal reasoning. I wonder more. I guess I'm not very well expressed his thought in previous messages. Forgive me for my bad English.

I'm curious to know:
1) Is there any historical sources (messages travelers of the 19th century, for example), who argue that in the mid-19th century, the production of wootz steel in India has stopped.
2) whether there are documents that say that in India in the 19th century, banned the production of wootz steel.

I would be grateful if you answer these my questions.

Here is an interesting statement, I have no idea how true and or extensive this statement is but I have read suggestions that the British had intentions of destroying the native Indian iron making capability, for financial gain and to make them dependent on imports or imported technology etc.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Here is an interesting statement, I have no idea how true and or extensive this statement is but I have read suggestions that the British had intentions of destroying the native Indian iron making capability, for financial gain and to make them dependent on imports or imported technology etc.

It is very interesting. Can you tell me what year this edition? And please tell me the output data: author, title, and page (if it is not difficult)

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mahratt

It is very interesting. Can you tell me what year this edition? And please tell me the output data: author, title, and page (if it is not difficult)

I believe that information is from chapter 5 of "India's Legendary Wootz Steel: An Advanced Material of the Ancient World", by Sharada Srinivasan, Srinivasa Ranganathan. National Institute of advanced studies, 2004

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by estcrh

I believe that information is from chapter 5 of "India's Legendary Wootz Steel: An Advanced Material of the Ancient World", by Sharada Srinivasan, Srinivasa Ranganathan. National Institute of advanced studies, 2004

Thank you!

But there is a question. After this passage:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Here is an interesting statement, I have no idea how true and or extensive this statement is but I have read suggestions that the British had intentions of destroying the native Indian iron making capability, for financial gain and to make them dependent on imports or imported technology etc.

there is a link to the source of the 19th century from which the author took this information?

Or just the author - so think?

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by estcrh

P.M. sent. Is there any evidence that Masalsky was actually in Persia, I find evidence that he was in Bukhara which has a long Persian history. Another problem when discussing this subject, unless you specifically say "watered steel" you do not know exactly what someone is referring to when they say "crucible steel, wootz, bulat, damascus steel" etc, these terms can and do mean different things to different people and the terms have changed over time. We tend to think of "crucible steel" as being "watered steel" but an object can be made from crucible steel and yet not show any sign of watering.

Masalsky wrote in his article is about the melting of wootz steel. Masalsky and Anosov identify wootz or Damascus. So it is about the melting of wootz steel.

I do not know how ideas emerge that Masalskoe watched Damascus steel smelting in Central Asia. It seems to me that it is certain speculations of modern writers (perhaps for the sake of their ideas).
I argue only that what writes Masalskoe. He's in his article never mentions: Central Asia, Bukhara, Bukhara residents or Uzbeks. But he constantly writes about the "Persians". It is logical to assume that Masalsky the observed process wootz steel smelting in Persia.

[mahratt]

Once again, I re-read the Lord Egerton. He writes about how to produce wootz in India. And I have not found any information on the termination of wootz steel smelting. Maybe I just missed something? Correct me please.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mahratt

Once again, I re-read the Lord Egerton. He writes about how to produce wootz in India. And I have not found any information on the termination of wootz steel smelting. Maybe I just missed something? Correct me please.

Asking the Earth: Farms, Forestry and Survival in India, Winin Pereira, Jeremy Seabrook Routledge, Nov 5, 2013. P21.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Asking the Earth: Farms, Forestry and Survival in India, Winin Pereira, Jeremy Seabrook Routledge, Nov 5, 2013. P21.

estcrh, I was very interested in this phrase:

"That is why following the Indian mutiny in 1857; the British ordered the destruction of all the Wootz swords"

The author makes reference to a historical document, mention of this event (The original source of the 19th century)?

Quote: "Finally, it was the dumping of British iron that completed the destruction of the industry. Campbell stated: "Among the most extensive of the exports of England to India, is the trade of bar iron, which to Madras alone amounts to 1000 tons per annum" , as I understand it is a "logical conclusions of the author"? That is, author does not provide any historical documents that speak to cease production of wootz steel in the 19th century? Again, only indirect data?

We all the time we see the work of contemporary writers who bring their thoughts about with what could be related "death" wootz steel in the 19th century. It is interesting. But even more interesting to see the historical documents.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mahratt

estcrh, I was very interested in this phrase:

"That is why following the Indian mutiny in 1857; the British ordered the destruction of all the Wootz swords"

The author makes reference to a historical document, mention of this event (The original source of the 19th century)?

Quote: "Finally, it was the dumping of British iron that completed the destruction of the industry. Campbell stated: "Among the most extensive of the exports of England to India, is the trade of bar iron, which to Madras alone amounts to 1000 tons per annum" , as I understand it is a "logical conclusions of the author"? That is, author does not provide any historical documents that speak to cease production of wootz steel in the 19th century? Again, only indirect data?

We all the time we see the work of contemporary writers who bring their thoughts about with what could be related "death" wootz steel in the 19th century. It is interesting. But even more interesting to see the historical documents.

I have not seen any mention of historical documents, just just first and second hand accounts and as you say "authors conclusions", the accuracy of these depends on the amount of research undertaken.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by estcrh

I have not seen any mention of historical documents, just just first and second hand accounts and as you say "authors conclusions", the accuracy of these depends on the amount of research undertaken.

Thank you. I understood you.

We will search further

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mahratt

Thank you. I understood you.

We will search further

Links for you.

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...Persian-Swords

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...Persian-Swords

https://ncc.academia.edu/AnnFeuerbach

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Links for you.

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...Persian-Swords

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...Persian-Swords

https://ncc.academia.edu/AnnFeuerbach

Thank you very much my friend! I have read articles Ann Feuerbach. But I think I need to read them again, to see the article in the context of references to historical documents.

[estcrh]

The Encyclopaedia of Islam, Sir Hamilton Alexander Rosskeen, 1954.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by estcrh

The Encyclopaedia of Islam, Sir Hamilton Alexander Rosskeen, 1954.

Thank you!

Do I understand correctly that in this passage from an article talking about the fact that in 1840 in Bukhara produced wootz on old technology?

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mahratt

Thank you!

Do I understand correctly that in this passage from an article talking about the fact that in 1840 in Bukhara produced wootz on old technology?

That is how I understand it, which could mean that Bukharan swords with bulat blades could have continued to be made quite late. But no evidence in Syria it seems.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by estcrh

That is how I understand it, which could mean that Bukharan swords with bulat blades could have continued to be made quite late.

Yes exactly. Because 1840 - it can be considered a mid-19th century.

Originally Posted by estcrh

But no evidence in Syria it seems.

I think wootz produced in mid-late 19 centry (or at least do the blades of old wootz steel billets) in Central Asia and Afghanistan.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by estcrh

The Encyclopaedia of Islam, Sir Hamilton Alexander Rosskeen, 1954.

Tell me, please, this passage on what page?

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mahratt

Tell me, please, this passage on what page?

Page 973

One question I have....did Persia actually produce wootz steel, I know they produced steel but was it wootz, or did they import their wootz and just forge the blades in Persia.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Page 973

Many thanks!

Originally Posted by estcrh

One question I have....did Persia actually produce wootz steel, I know they produced steel but was it wootz, or did they import their wootz and just forge the blades in Persia.

This is a difficult question. I do not have data for the 18-19 age. But Al-Biruni wrote that in Herat produced wootz. Herat - is Persia ...

At the same time there is no doubt that the finest blades of wootz steel is made in Persia.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mahratt

Many thanks!



This is a difficult question. I do not have data for the 18-19 age. But Al-Biruni wrote that in Herat produced wootz. Herat - is Persia ...

At the same time there is no doubt that the finest blades of wootz steel is made in Persia.

By Manouchehr Moshtagh Khorasani

Saturday, 23 November
I held a public lecture on "Crucible and Welded Steel Weapons on Oriental Weapons: From Persian, Ottoman and Indian Examples". This event was held at the dining room at the President's Palace in Valletta on November 23, 2013 from 10:30 a.m. to 11:30 a.m. The event was held under the distinguished patronage of His Excellency Dr. George Abela, President of Malta. I would like to thank Dr. Abela here again for all his support for the whole event. My table of contents of my presentation included the following: a) Crucible steel, b) Forging process of crucible steel, c) Crucible steel patterns, d) Pattern-welded steel, e) Pattern-welded steel patterns, f) Indian examples, g) Ottoman examples, h) Persian examples and i) Summary.


I started the lecture by introducing how crucible steel was made and showed some picture of the process. I explained that crucible steel was called pulād-e jŏhardār (watered steel) in Persian. Then I showed different crucible steel blade patterns such as a) pulād-e jŏhardār-e mošabak (watered steel with net pattern; a type of crucible steel with woodgrain pattern), b) qaraxorāsāni(black watered steel from Xorāsān / Khorasan), c) pulād-e jŏhardār-e qerq nardebān (watered steel with ladder pattern), d) lolo (pearl pattern; rose pattern), e) pulād-e mavvāj or pulād-e mŏjdār(a type of crucible steel with wavy pattern) and f) pulād-e jŏhardār-e xati (lined watered steel; a type of crucible steel with lined pattern).


In the next step, I moved to the process of how patttern-welded steel was made in Persia. Although pattern-welded steel was used to a limited extent for making blades, it was mostly used for making gun barrels in Persia. The pattern-welded steel is called pulād-e masnu’i (artificial steel; pattern welded steel) that is divided into a) pulād-e motabbaq (layered steel) that is further divided into pulād-e motabbaq-e montazam (layered and ordered steel) and pulād-e motabbaq-e rangi (colored and layered steel) and b) pulād-e piči (twisted steel) that is further divided into pulād-e piči-ye montazam (twisted and ordered steel) and pulād-e piči-ye rangi (twisted and colored steel). Then I showed examples from Indian, Ottoman and Persian edged weapons. The presentation was a huge success and many people really liked it and talked to me after the presentation about these types of steel.

[mahratt]

estcrh, I read a books last days of Russian travelers. Those travelers who were in Persia and Bukhara Khanate in 1820-1900 years. Based on their descriptions - in Persia produced wootz.