Bugis Keris

Spunjer · 26th November 2014, 05:54 AM

here's my first bugis keris. the handle is ivory, and i believe the mendak is gold, but i haven't had it tested yet. i do love the pattern on the scabbard, and i realize it needs some cleaning. as far as the blade, it needs to be stain (i think), but after reading Alan's link on a previous post, i think i'll leave that alone. i would love to hear everyone comments on this particular keris, though!

Jean · 26th November 2014, 09:34 AM

Very nice and rare ivory hilt, the scabbard does not look very old but I could be wrong (check inside the slot), the blade with strong gusen (bevels) on the edges has an odd ganja (iras?) but which seems original. From the pics the selut seems to be from brass but again I can be mistaken. A very good kris anyway, congratulations!
Regards

Spunjer · 26th November 2014, 12:54 PM

thanks for the comment, Jean! my apologies on the terminologies. so what's the difference between a selut and a mendak? nevertheless, i will have it tested.
i looked inside the scabbard and it appears to be older: uniform dark patina all the way as far as i can see.

Jean · 26th November 2014, 01:56 PM

The selut (javanese term) or pedongkok (Sumatra/ Malay term) is the cup inserting the base of the hilt while the mendak is the conical piece inserted between a javanese hilt and the blade.
Regards

Sajen · 26th November 2014, 07:49 PM

Hi Ron,

agree, very nice keris. I could be wrong but I think that your keris coming from North Sumatra, maybe Gayo. The scabbard missing maybe it's foot.

Regards,
Detlef

Spunjer · 27th November 2014, 02:27 AM

thanks for the comment, Detlef! that was my initial thought, that the foot (buntut?) was missing, but upon closer look, the patina is uniform throughout with no sign of having anything attached to it. of course there's a possibility that it might have one at certain point, but if it did, it must have came off early in its life.

David · 27th November 2014, 08:00 AM

I really like this keris. The hilt is both beautiful and unusual. The blade is quite nice as well. As Jean stated in his second reply, pendokok is probably a better term than selut for the hilt cup. Of course one could always just say "hilt cup".

While we are discussing terminology i am not sure i would refer to the bevelled surfaces here as gusen. Again this is Javanese terminology, but AFAIK gusen refers to a rather narrow bevel right at the very edge of the blade. The classic Bugis bevel here seems too broad to be referred to in this way, but maybe i am mistaken on that front.
I'm not sure if there was ever a buntet on this sheath stem or not. A shot from the bottom might clear that up. I wouldn't worry about the age of the sheath as much as i would the quality. Dress on Indonesian keris are often changed throughout the life of the blade. One would not really expect to find an original sheath on an old blade. Looks like nice wood. Nothing fancy in the carving, but certainly competent. If it also fits the blade well than i would say it is a good marriage. Would love to hear if the hilt cup turns out to be gold.

A. G. Maisey · 27th November 2014, 12:34 PM

It is perfectly legitimate to refer to the blade bevel as a "gusen" -- if we are to use Javanese terms to describe this blade, and since we use the word "keris" to describe the overall blade, then we probably should be OK to use "gusen" as well.

In fact, "gusen" is variation of "kusen", which is a variation of "kosen".

"kosen" is a frame, as in a window frame or a door frame.

the blade bevel frames the blade, thus "gusen", or "kusen", or "kosen".

In Central Jawa you will see signs outside businesses along the street that advertise that they make "gusen", or "kusen", or "kosen". These places make window and door frames, as well as other joinery.

A lot of the words that we use to describe parts of a keris are perfectly ordinary words, in many cases ordinary words used in order to hide the true names, because the true names are select knowledge.

One keris term I've always got a smile out of is "sogokan" --- this is pronounced "sogo'an", the "k" is a glottal stop.

A sogokan is a poker, as in a stick, or a pipe or similar used to poke something else, for instance, if your storm-water outlet was blocked, you'd use a sogokan to clear it.

I like David's "blade bevel" actually:- its fine to know the indigenous terms, but often the English term is more easily understood by English speakers.

Spunjer · 27th November 2014, 02:15 PM

thanks for the lesson in terminology! "Buntet" sounds easy enough to remember: in tagalog "buntot" means tail, so i'm assuming the toe on the scabbard has a similar connotation?
here's the close up of the bottom. as mentioned earlier, the patina is uniformed throughout

David · 27th November 2014, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

It is perfectly legitimate to refer to the blade bevel as a "gusen" -- if we are to use Javanese terms to describe this blade, and since we use the word "keris" to describe the overall blade, then we probably should be OK to use "gusen" as well.

In fact, "gusen" is variation of "kusen", which is a variation of "kosen".

"kosen" is a frame, as in a window frame or a door frame.

the blade bevel frames the blade, thus "gusen", or "kusen", or "kosen".

In Central Jawa you will see signs outside businesses along the street that advertise that they make "gusen", or "kusen", or "kosen". These places make window and door frames, as well as other joinery.

A lot of the words that we use to describe parts of a keris are perfectly ordinary words, in many cases ordinary words used in order to hide the true names, because the true names are select knowledge.

One keris term I've always got a smile out of is "sogokan" --- this is pronounced "sogo'an", the "k" is a glottal stop.

A sogokan is a poker, as in a stick, or a pipe or similar used to poke something else, for instance, if your storm-water outlet was blocked, you'd use a sogokan to clear it.

I like David's "blade bevel" actually:- its fine to know the indigenous terms, but often the English term is more easily understood by English speakers.

Thanks Alan. I wasn't so much arguing whether a Javanese term was appropriate here, but whether the bevel aspect of this classic Bugis blade form really qualifies to be described as a "frame for this style of blade. The bevelled aspects of this blade are the majority of the entire blade so i find it harder to see it as a "frame" for the blade in this case.

David · 27th November 2014, 07:09 PM

Thanks for the bottom view Ron. My person view is that a bunter would probably be proper here, but that doesn't mean one was ever there. But regardless of patina it does appear to me at least that the bottom did not receive the same staining treatment as the rest of the stem. A thin piece of ivory here would possibly have been a nice finishing touch.

A. G. Maisey · 27th November 2014, 10:12 PM

Thanks for your clarification David.

Yes, from a Javanese perspective there is absolutely no doubt that the blade bevel on this keris is correctly termed gusen --- or whatever of the variations we're comfortable with.

The profile of the blade is classic Bugis. The Surakarta classification system does recognise a Bugis classification, and the notes I have in respect of cross section translate as:-
"there is no ada-ada, the blade is flat and has a wide gusen".

Regarding the term we use for the cap at the end of the gandar. In Javanese terminology this is "buntut".

The word "buntut" can be used in a few different ways, it means a tail, it means the rear end of anything, it also means the result or consequence of something. So the little cap that we sometimes see on the end of a gandar is named thus because of its position:- it’s the tail of the gandar --- just as Ron guessed. Buntut is a noun.

There is also a word "buntet", this means that one end of something is closed. Buntet is an adjective.

There are other related words that have different meanings, like "buntu"= deadend, clogged, blocked; "bunting"= cut off; "bunuh"= confused (your thoughts are mixed up, so you cannot progress in thought, same idea as a deadend); "bunting" & "buncit"= youngest person in a family(the family line does not extend past the youngest); "buntas"=last part or end; "buntar"=the end of a tombak shaft, also the end of a ditch.

That "bun" syllable carries the idea of something being finished, the examples I've given are just a few that come readily to mind, but I'm sure there are a whole heap of words that begin with "bun" that the idea of closure can be seen in. I guess even the word for a wrapping --- "buntel" --- carries the same sense of being the end of something --- inside the wrapping is substance, outside the wrapping is nothing.

As I said previously a lot of keris words are just ordinary words. Perhaps one of the biggest gains that could be made in keris understanding might be to learn just a little bit of Bahasa Indonesia, and/or Javanese.

I'm no linguist, and in truth I have very limited ability in languages other than English, but I believe that if we looked at languages across SE Asia, and even into the Pacific, we would find a strong connecting thread. I've often heard Tagalog spoken, I do not understand it, but listening to it I always feel that I am on the edge of understanding what is being said, it has a very similar tone and cadence to Javanese, and the words taken individually sound comprehensible.

David · 28th November 2014, 03:53 AM

Thanks for the additional info Alan. Of course when i was writing auto-correct changed "buntut" to "bunter", which i can only assume is baseball terminology…

A. G. Maisey · 28th November 2014, 04:10 AM

Oh yeah --- auto correct.

What a pain!!!

I have tried to find out how to turn it off and I cannot.

It would be nice if I could get something that would check text on request, identify words it thinks are wrong, and let me decide if they are wrong or not.

Spunjer · 28th November 2014, 05:13 AM

yes, there seems to be a lot of commonality between javanese and tagalog. you mentioned "buncit"; in tagalog, it's bunso. the similarity goes way back, as illustrated by the Laguna Copper plate, which was inscribed in 900 AD:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laguna_...te_Inscription

Thanks for everyone's input!

David · 28th November 2014, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Oh yeah --- auto correct.

What a pain!!!

I have tried to find out how to turn it off and I cannot.

It would be nice if I could get something that would check text on request, identify words it thinks are wrong, and let me decide if they are wrong or not.

Well you can teach new words to the auto-correct so that it doesn't change them. I have done this with a few keris related terms, but there are so many more.

Jean · 29th November 2014, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Thanks for the bottom view Ron. My person view is that a bunter would probably be proper here, but that doesn't mean one was ever there. But regardless of patina it does appear to me at least that the bottom did not receive the same staining treatment as the rest of the stem. A thin piece of ivory here would possibly have been a nice finishing touch.

From the pics it would seem that the bottom piece is not more recent than the scabbard itself but it is not in Sulawesi nor East Sumatra Bugis style IMO, see a typical old Sulawesi scabbard for comparison.
Regards

Sajen · 29th November 2014, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

From the pics it would seem that the bottom piece is not more recent than the scabbard itself but it is not in Sulawesi nor East Sumatra Bugis style IMO, see a typical old Sulawesi scabbard for comparison.
Regards

Hello Jean,

like said before, the keris could be from North Sumatra, have a look to Jensens Kris Disk, the stars around the bottom from the handle are typical for Gayo. This would explain also the somewhat unusual scabbard style.

Regards,
Detlef

Rick · 29th November 2014, 04:45 PM

Anyone beside me wondering how the heck they achieved that ganja iras ??

Jean · 29th November 2014, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Anyone beside me wondering how the heck they achieved that ganja iras ??

Yes Rick, I am also wondering and expected somebody to raise it... The pamor pattern on the blade is mlumah (pamor lines parallel to the blade lenght) while on the ganja they are miring (perpendicular to the blade lenght). To me one way to achieve it would be to cut the ganja and to weld it perpendicular to the blade lenght? I can see a trace of a welding line between the blade and the ganja but I am not sure. This is the first time I see such an odd ganja.
Regards

Jean · 29th November 2014, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Jean,

like said before, the keris could be from North Sumatra, have a look to Jensens Kris Disk, the stars around the bottom from the handle are typical for Gayo. This would explain also the somewhat unusual scabbard style.

Regards,
Detlef

Hello Detlef,
The diamonds at the base of this hilt have a peculiar shape and they are not exclusive to Gayo hilts IMO, see this one from West Sumatra for instance. The Gayo hilts are generally in Jawa Demam or bawar style, but not Bugis? And the scabbard is not at all typical of Gayo krisses? Any opinion about the possible origin of this kris will be welcome.

Regards

David · 29th November 2014, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

To me one way to achieve it would be to cut the ganja and to weld it perpendicular to the blade length? I can see a trace of a welding line between the blade and the ganja but I am not sure. This is the first time I see such an odd ganja.

Perhaps, but that would seem an odd way to create a gonjo iras blade AFAIK since i always thought such blades were made all in one piece, not welded together afterwards. First time i have see such a thing as well.

Jean · 29th November 2014, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Perhaps, but that would seem an odd way to create a gonjo iras blade AFAIK since i always thought such blades were made all in one piece, not welded together afterwards. First time i have see such a thing as well.

I hope that Alan will enlighten us

Regards

kai · 29th November 2014, 10:26 PM

Yes, this ganja seems to have been welded back onto the blade. I doubt this is practised in Jawa - probably pretty ideosyncratic craftmanship...

I wouldn't call this a ganja iras blade either since the esthetics are obviously different.

Regards,
Kai

kai · 29th November 2014, 11:27 PM

Hello Ron,

Congrats, a really nice keris!

While the blade is obviously influenced by "Bugis" style, the flow of lines does not seem to support an origin from Sulawesi; it does look Sumatran/Malay to me.

The gorgeous hilt is special and may be an unique one-off - at least I haven't seen any that seem to be related or with similar features. The star-like decoration at the base is carved differently from what is usually associated with Gayo and possibly neighboring highland areas. (The pendokok looks also brass/bronze to me.)

The scabbard is of an old type associated with central coastal Sumatra and the neighboring Melacca Straits area (Riau archipelago), quite possibly Jambi.

For convenience, I'm attaching a few examples from Gavin's site. Please note the silver buntut in the first example - I believe Ron's keris may have had a similarly worked scabbard tip (if the scars visible in the wood are on both sides, a now lost silver buntut seems very likely IMHO). Also note the wood which is very similar.

Regards,
Kai

Sajen · 30th November 2014, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Detlef,
The diamonds at the base of this hilt have a peculiar shape and they are not exclusive to Gayo hilts IMO, see this one from West Sumatra for instance. The Gayo hilts are generally in Jawa Demam or bawar style, but not Bugis? And the scabbard is not at all typical of Gayo krisses? Any opinion about the possible origin of this kris will be welcome.

Regards

Hello Jean,
what let you be sure that your hilt is from West Sumatra?

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 30th November 2014, 07:58 AM

The gonjo question.

Simple answer:- don't know.

If I had it in hand I would examine closely under magnification, and I think I'd probably find that it had been welded in position, but what sort of weld?

Gas? Electric? Forge?

What was done, when was it done, and why?

Don't know.

Jean · 1st December 2014, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Jean,
what let you be sure that your hilt is from West Sumatra?

Regards,
Detlef

Hello Detlef,
I am not sure of course as this style of hilt is very rare. I rely on the information given by Vanna Ghiringhelli on pages 146/147 of her book "The Invincible krisses 2" which shows a similar hilt (without the stars) fitted on a Minangkabau kris bought near Padang, and another hilt shown on page 105 of her first book "Kris Gli Invincibili" (without definite origin).
Regards

Jean · 1st December 2014, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Ron,

While the blade is obviously influenced by "Bugis" style, the flow of lines does not seem to support an origin from Sulawesi; it does look Sumatran/Malay to me.

Kai

Hello Kai,
I agree with you, another point is that to my best knowledge these wide bevels are never (or at least very rarely) seen on Sulawesi Bugis blades, for instance this ricikan is not mentioned in the reference book "Senjata Pusaka Bugis" and none of the blades shown in the book includes this feature. This type of odd ganja is not commonly used in Sulawesi as well.
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 1st December 2014, 10:29 PM

I'm having a little bit of difficulty in understanding exactly where this discussion is going, and I would appreciate it if somebody could clarify for me the following:-

1) Do we accept that the designation of "Bugis", as applied to a keris blade, and to keris dress, refers to a style of blade that is associated with the Bugis people?

2) Do we accept that the diaspora of the Bugis people, which began in the 17th century, and continues until today, has seen the spread of Bugis cultural style and values, as well as Bugis genetic inheritance, to areas far removed from the homeland of the Bugis people in South West Sulawesi?

3) Do we accept that the characteristics displayed in items of material culture originating from a common cultural source can vary for many reasons ?

4) Do we accept that the existence of the dominant characteristics of any item of material culture determine the culture to which that item is to be assigned?

5) Do we agree that the designation of "Bugis" when applied to a keris blade is a cultural, rather than a geographic classification?

If we are in agreement in respect of the above, then there can be no doubt at all that the keris under discussion here is a Bugis keris.

My opinion is that this is not a Bugis "influenced" keris, nor is it a keris of Bugis "style".

It is a Bugis keris.

However there are several questions that remain unanswered:-

A) What is the geographic point of origin of the various components of this complete keris?

B) Is there a possibility that the peculiarities noted in the fabrication of the blade are the result of a blade revision?

C) If the response to B) is that this conjecture is a possibility, then where & when was this revision carried out?

The more I look at the images of this keris, the more I feel that I am looking at a marriage.

Is there the possibility that the edges of this blade were filed or ground to remove imperfections, and when this work was done, the width of the gusen increased?

If I look closely at the texture of the face of the blade and I compare it with the texture of the bevels of the blade, these bevels do not seem to share the same texture as is found on the face of the blade.

During my life I have handled thousands of keris of all types.

I have never seen a keris with a separately made gonjo that has been permanently fixed to the body of the blade.

There is a possibility that that this permanent fixture of the gonjo was the result of one man's idea for improvement, either the maker, or the man who placed the order with the maker, or some later owner.

When I consider all the questionable aspects of this complete keris, my present feeling is that this is a marriage that took place far away from the geographic point of origin of any of the components of this complete keris.

26th November 2014, 05:54 AM	#1
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	Bugis Keris here's my first bugis keris. the handle is ivory, and i believe the mendak is gold, but i haven't had it tested yet. i do love the pattern on the scabbard, and i realize it needs some cleaning. as far as the blade, it needs to be stain (i think), but after reading Alan's link on a previous post, i think i'll leave that alone. i would love to hear everyone comments on this particular keris, though! Attached Images

27th November 2014, 02:15 PM	#9
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	thanks for the lesson in terminology! "Buntet" sounds easy enough to remember: in tagalog "buntot" means tail, so i'm assuming the toe on the scabbard has a similar connotation? here's the close up of the bottom. as mentioned earlier, the patina is uniformed throughout Attached Images

29th November 2014, 11:27 PM	#25
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Ron, Congrats, a really nice keris! While the blade is obviously influenced by "Bugis" style, the flow of lines does not seem to support an origin from Sulawesi; it does look Sumatran/Malay to me. The gorgeous hilt is special and may be an unique one-off - at least I haven't seen any that seem to be related or with similar features. The star-like decoration at the base is carved differently from what is usually associated with Gayo and possibly neighboring highland areas. (The pendokok looks also brass/bronze to me.) The scabbard is of an old type associated with central coastal Sumatra and the neighboring Melacca Straits area (Riau archipelago), quite possibly Jambi. For convenience, I'm attaching a few examples from Gavin's site. Please note the silver buntut in the first example - I believe Ron's keris may have had a similarly worked scabbard tip (if the scars visible in the wood are on both sides, a now lost silver buntut seems very likely IMHO). Also note the wood which is very similar. Regards, Kai Attached Images

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26th November 2014, 09:34 AM	#2
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Very nice and rare ivory hilt, the scabbard does not look very old but I could be wrong (check inside the slot), the blade with strong gusen (bevels) on the edges has an odd ganja (iras?) but which seems original. From the pics the selut seems to be from brass but again I can be mistaken. A very good kris anyway, congratulations! Regards

26th November 2014, 12:54 PM	#3
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	thanks for the comment, Jean! my apologies on the terminologies. so what's the difference between a selut and a mendak? nevertheless, i will have it tested. i looked inside the scabbard and it appears to be older: uniform dark patina all the way as far as i can see.

26th November 2014, 01:56 PM	#4
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	The selut (javanese term) or pedongkok (Sumatra/ Malay term) is the cup inserting the base of the hilt while the mendak is the conical piece inserted between a javanese hilt and the blade. Regards

26th November 2014, 07:49 PM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Hi Ron, agree, very nice keris. I could be wrong but I think that your keris coming from North Sumatra, maybe Gayo. The scabbard missing maybe it's foot. Regards, Detlef

27th November 2014, 02:27 AM	#6
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	thanks for the comment, Detlef! that was my initial thought, that the foot (buntut?) was missing, but upon closer look, the patina is uniform throughout with no sign of having anything attached to it. of course there's a possibility that it might have one at certain point, but if it did, it must have came off early in its life.

27th November 2014, 08:00 AM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,124	I really like this keris. The hilt is both beautiful and unusual. The blade is quite nice as well. As Jean stated in his second reply, pendokok is probably a better term than selut for the hilt cup. Of course one could always just say "hilt cup". While we are discussing terminology i am not sure i would refer to the bevelled surfaces here as gusen. Again this is Javanese terminology, but AFAIK gusen refers to a rather narrow bevel right at the very edge of the blade. The classic Bugis bevel here seems too broad to be referred to in this way, but maybe i am mistaken on that front. I'm not sure if there was ever a buntet on this sheath stem or not. A shot from the bottom might clear that up. I wouldn't worry about the age of the sheath as much as i would the quality. Dress on Indonesian keris are often changed throughout the life of the blade. One would not really expect to find an original sheath on an old blade. Looks like nice wood. Nothing fancy in the carving, but certainly competent. If it also fits the blade well than i would say it is a good marriage. Would love to hear if the hilt cup turns out to be gold.

27th November 2014, 12:34 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	It is perfectly legitimate to refer to the blade bevel as a "gusen" -- if we are to use Javanese terms to describe this blade, and since we use the word "keris" to describe the overall blade, then we probably should be OK to use "gusen" as well. In fact, "gusen" is variation of "kusen", which is a variation of "kosen". "kosen" is a frame, as in a window frame or a door frame. the blade bevel frames the blade, thus "gusen", or "kusen", or "kosen". In Central Jawa you will see signs outside businesses along the street that advertise that they make "gusen", or "kusen", or "kosen". These places make window and door frames, as well as other joinery. A lot of the words that we use to describe parts of a keris are perfectly ordinary words, in many cases ordinary words used in order to hide the true names, because the true names are select knowledge. One keris term I've always got a smile out of is "sogokan" --- this is pronounced "sogo'an", the "k" is a glottal stop. A sogokan is a poker, as in a stick, or a pipe or similar used to poke something else, for instance, if your storm-water outlet was blocked, you'd use a sogokan to clear it. I like David's "blade bevel" actually:- its fine to know the indigenous terms, but often the English term is more easily understood by English speakers.

27th November 2014, 07:09 PM	#11
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,124	Thanks for the bottom view Ron. My person view is that a bunter would probably be proper here, but that doesn't mean one was ever there. But regardless of patina it does appear to me at least that the bottom did not receive the same staining treatment as the rest of the stem. A thin piece of ivory here would possibly have been a nice finishing touch.

27th November 2014, 10:12 PM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Thanks for your clarification David. Yes, from a Javanese perspective there is absolutely no doubt that the blade bevel on this keris is correctly termed gusen --- or whatever of the variations we're comfortable with. The profile of the blade is classic Bugis. The Surakarta classification system does recognise a Bugis classification, and the notes I have in respect of cross section translate as:- "there is no ada-ada, the blade is flat and has a wide gusen". Regarding the term we use for the cap at the end of the gandar. In Javanese terminology this is "buntut". The word "buntut" can be used in a few different ways, it means a tail, it means the rear end of anything, it also means the result or consequence of something. So the little cap that we sometimes see on the end of a gandar is named thus because of its position:- it’s the tail of the gandar --- just as Ron guessed. Buntut is a noun. There is also a word "buntet", this means that one end of something is closed. Buntet is an adjective. There are other related words that have different meanings, like "buntu"= deadend, clogged, blocked; "bunting"= cut off; "bunuh"= confused (your thoughts are mixed up, so you cannot progress in thought, same idea as a deadend); "bunting" & "buncit"= youngest person in a family(the family line does not extend past the youngest); "buntas"=last part or end; "buntar"=the end of a tombak shaft, also the end of a ditch. That "bun" syllable carries the idea of something being finished, the examples I've given are just a few that come readily to mind, but I'm sure there are a whole heap of words that begin with "bun" that the idea of closure can be seen in. I guess even the word for a wrapping --- "buntel" --- carries the same sense of being the end of something --- inside the wrapping is substance, outside the wrapping is nothing. As I said previously a lot of keris words are just ordinary words. Perhaps one of the biggest gains that could be made in keris understanding might be to learn just a little bit of Bahasa Indonesia, and/or Javanese. I'm no linguist, and in truth I have very limited ability in languages other than English, but I believe that if we looked at languages across SE Asia, and even into the Pacific, we would find a strong connecting thread. I've often heard Tagalog spoken, I do not understand it, but listening to it I always feel that I am on the edge of understanding what is being said, it has a very similar tone and cadence to Javanese, and the words taken individually sound comprehensible.

28th November 2014, 03:53 AM	#13
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,124	Thanks for the additional info Alan. Of course when i was writing auto-correct changed "buntut" to "bunter", which i can only assume is baseball terminology…

28th November 2014, 04:10 AM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Oh yeah --- auto correct. What a pain!!! I have tried to find out how to turn it off and I cannot. It would be nice if I could get something that would check text on request, identify words it thinks are wrong, and let me decide if they are wrong or not.

28th November 2014, 05:13 AM	#15
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	yes, there seems to be a lot of commonality between javanese and tagalog. you mentioned "buncit"; in tagalog, it's bunso. the similarity goes way back, as illustrated by the Laguna Copper plate, which was inscribed in 900 AD: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laguna_...te_Inscription Thanks for everyone's input!

29th November 2014, 04:45 PM	#19
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Anyone beside me wondering how the heck they achieved that ganja iras ??

29th November 2014, 10:26 PM	#24
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Yes, this ganja seems to have been welded back onto the blade. I doubt this is practised in Jawa - probably pretty ideosyncratic craftmanship... I wouldn't call this a ganja iras blade either since the esthetics are obviously different. Regards, Kai

30th November 2014, 07:58 AM	#27
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	The gonjo question. Simple answer:- don't know. If I had it in hand I would examine closely under magnification, and I think I'd probably find that it had been welded in position, but what sort of weld? Gas? Electric? Forge? What was done, when was it done, and why? Don't know.

1st December 2014, 10:29 PM	#30
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	I'm having a little bit of difficulty in understanding exactly where this discussion is going, and I would appreciate it if somebody could clarify for me the following:- 1) Do we accept that the designation of "Bugis", as applied to a keris blade, and to keris dress, refers to a style of blade that is associated with the Bugis people? 2) Do we accept that the diaspora of the Bugis people, which began in the 17th century, and continues until today, has seen the spread of Bugis cultural style and values, as well as Bugis genetic inheritance, to areas far removed from the homeland of the Bugis people in South West Sulawesi? 3) Do we accept that the characteristics displayed in items of material culture originating from a common cultural source can vary for many reasons ? 4) Do we accept that the existence of the dominant characteristics of any item of material culture determine the culture to which that item is to be assigned? 5) Do we agree that the designation of "Bugis" when applied to a keris blade is a cultural, rather than a geographic classification? If we are in agreement in respect of the above, then there can be no doubt at all that the keris under discussion here is a Bugis keris. My opinion is that this is not a Bugis "influenced" keris, nor is it a keris of Bugis "style". It is a Bugis keris. However there are several questions that remain unanswered:- A) What is the geographic point of origin of the various components of this complete keris? B) Is there a possibility that the peculiarities noted in the fabrication of the blade are the result of a blade revision? C) If the response to B) is that this conjecture is a possibility, then where & when was this revision carried out? The more I look at the images of this keris, the more I feel that I am looking at a marriage. Is there the possibility that the edges of this blade were filed or ground to remove imperfections, and when this work was done, the width of the gusen increased? If I look closely at the texture of the face of the blade and I compare it with the texture of the bevels of the blade, these bevels do not seem to share the same texture as is found on the face of the blade. During my life I have handled thousands of keris of all types. I have never seen a keris with a separately made gonjo that has been permanently fixed to the body of the blade. There is a possibility that that this permanent fixture of the gonjo was the result of one man's idea for improvement, either the maker, or the man who placed the order with the maker, or some later owner. When I consider all the questionable aspects of this complete keris, my present feeling is that this is a marriage that took place far away from the geographic point of origin of any of the components of this complete keris.