An Interesting 15th C. Nuremberg Mail Shirt Fragment With Mark

[Matchlock]

This fragment of a 15th c. mail shirt, in excavated condition, was sold at a South German auction a few years ago.
What is most remarkable is that it retained a brass seal struck with the Nuremberg proof mark.

Best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

it is said it has been found in Bott germany.

[Matchlock]

A town or place named Bott does not exist in Germany.

Did you mean Bottrop?

m

[Swordfish]

Good find! With an experts eye!
Do you have acquired it?
Unfortunately its clearly a fake!
I have not seen it in reality, but no doubt. Two of the holes of the shield have no rings, the third is broken, and the fourth surely as well.
The same mark was on a mail fragment of clearly different shape, sold at the same auction house October 2009 lot 421.
The same mark again on a complete shirt, sold October 2008 lot 388 at the same auction house.
The mark without mail fragment, described as genuine, is actually for sale in the USA.

Best

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Swordfish

Good find! With an experts eye!
Do you have acquired it?
Unfortunately its clearly a fake!
I have not seen it in reality, but no doubt. Two of the holes of the shield have no rings, the third is broken, and the fourth surely as well.
The same mark was on a mail fragment of clearly different shape, sold at the same auction house October 2009 lot 421.
The same mark again on a complete shirt, sold October 2008 lot 388 at the same auction house.
The mark without mail fragment, described as genuine, is actually for sale in the USA.

Best

good expert eye swordfish!
the mark with and without the mail post #1 and#2 are one and the same! and still for sale in the USA.
I can not judge form the pictures if it is real or not, can you?

best,

[Swordfish]

When I saw it the first time (in the auction catalogue), I was immediately sceptic about it. The whole style looked not good to me. The arms and the surrounding dots are handmade. If the city of Nuremberg used such a mark, it would surely have been stamped with a punch. If it is an original fragment, all four holes or at least 3 should retain the original rings, not broken, and the rivetting intact.

Best

[cornelistromp]

yes, I also think the mail fragment and brass tag are are probably not belonging together.
Gives this enough reason to declear the tag a fake?
The mail fragment could have been attached later by somebody, a collector or somebody else, as decoration for the tag.
it is a not a whole shirt what is attached, then it would have been a wrong composition!

In any case the party who is offering it now removed the fragment, he probably thought the same.

How were these marks attached to the mail, ​​as part of the mail with a riveted ring or sometimes also with separate brass rings ? I think I have seen both.

That the cast plate has been punched by hand, that I see as a more positive characteristic.
a 2 cm mark is probably too large to struck with a stamp.
Moreover, most of the brass mail rings are also cast and then afterwards punched, the same technique has been used here.
Further you also see some old traces of wear near the holes, it looks that the plate has been attached before.

I can not say for sure whether it is real but clearly a fake it is certainly not.

best,

[Swordfish]

After close examination of two of these marks, I have to revise my opinion.
The arms and the dots are not handmade, but the stamp or the casting mould with which these fakes were made, is crudely handmade.

Otherwise you are completely wrong.

The facts are: 3 identical (not similar,but identical) marks with the same irregularities.
The first sold October 2008 lot 388 on a not excavated mail shirt of poor quality with missing parts.
The second sold October 2009 lot 421 on a not excavated small mail fragment.
The third (depicted in post#1) sold October 2010 lot 573 on a small corroded fragment.

Town marks or inscribed brass rings are never cast or single handmade items. They are always stamped and punched from a sheet.

If the town mark is included in the mesh of the shirt, it must have been added during the manufacturing. This is impossible, because a proof mark or an arsenal mark can only be added to a finished mail shirt. Or the finished mail shirt must have been opened to include the mark and fasten it with some new rings. (unlikely)
Or the mark was added to the finished shirt with additional rings. See the brass ring with name Nurenberck in my thread Research on a fine medieval mail shirt. This practice was usual with rings but not with shields. If a ring with a town name was possibly not a proof mark, but a quality mark to show its provenance, it could well be included in the mesh during the manufacturing. See the rings Bertold vor Parte and to Isrenloen in the thread mentioned above.
All examples of shield marks I know are rivetted to the mail shirt with one or two rivets.

Traces of wear or age can be found on every fake.

There can be no doubt, these marks are fakes from the same workshop!

Best

[cornelistromp]

interesting, if the marks are indeed identical, you're right and I'm really terribly wrong.
not because they are the same but because it is unlikely that 3 similar tags appear as close to each other at auctions.

Do you have pictures of the brass tags of the 2 lots of those auctions? :
The first lot sold October 2008 388 on a shirt not excavated mail with missing or poor quality parts.
The second solder October 2009 lot 421 not excavated on a small mail fragment.

One side note:
the brass rings from your other thread are certainly cast and chased, but this has been done in the 15th century.

There were in the 15th century 2 techniques for casting;
the so-called lost-wax technique by the direct method:
the ring was first carefully modeled in beeswax and then covered with clay and the clay was allowed to dry. The whole assembly was heated in a furnace which both fired the clay and burned out the wax (hence the term "lost wax"). The mold was then filled with molten metal. After cooling, the clay mold was broken away, revealing the original wax model as well as the sprues, now transformed into metal. The sprues were cut away and the brass characters are worked with tools ("chased") to the desired degree of finish. here the original model is destroyed and it is not possible to recieve 2 similar casts!

the second method is the lostwax indirect method, involve casting a second model in wax, the so-called intermodel, from the original model made by the sculptor. Once an intermodel has been made, it can be cast in metal exactly as described for direct casting. indirect casting was well known to the Greeks as early as the seventh century B.C. and riveved in the 15thC.
With this technique it was posible in the 15thC onwards to cast multiple similar casts.
like the Nuremberg tag.

but as I said very unlikely that so many suddenly appear

best,

[Swordfish]

Here are the photos of the two other marks.

Additional I have attached a photo of a mail shirt, sold Christies May 2008, with a shield-mark inscribed Statt Nurmberg, fixed with a rivet.

I know the methods of casting in medieval times.

But believe me. These rings and shields are stamped and punched!
If you once have made the tools, its only a work of seconds to make a mark from a piece o brass sheet metal.

The ring with the name borsteken has a thickness of only 0.7 mm, the height of the minuscules is 0.3 mm, the whole thickness therefore 1 mm.
The rounded surface, which resembles a cast item , comes from years of wear.

Best

[cornelistromp]

thanks for the pictures, with this new information I must conclude that indeed it does not look good.

there is probably someone trying to falsify the origin and multiply the value of mail and pieces of mail.

best,