Newbie: Lots of Help Needed!

buddhantraining · 11th July 2005, 02:43 PM

Hi Guys,

I just found this forum last night (thankfully!) and have been reading as much as I can before I decided to make a post. I could really use everyone's help and would be so grateful for whatever comments I receive on this. Here's the story:

A very, very dear friend of mine has given me two arms - a talibon (which I just found out was a talibon last night thanks to you guys!) and a sword. Both are obviously old/antiques/whatever you want to call them. This is my first time even coming into contact with these sorts of things so I truly know nothing about this field of collecting. My friend was given these two pieces when he was a small child and he is now 68 years old - they were antiques when given to him - and he has no knowledge of where they came from or anything else.

I'm not familiar with how to post photos so I uploaded them to my Shutterfly account, they can be viewed here: http://share.shutterfly.com/osi.jsp?i=EeANGzhqyZt3DgI

Although I know the one is a talibon, I'm a bit confused about it's sheath. The carvings on the sheath seem very patriotic to me which wouldn't make much sense given the age of the talibon. Does anyone have any idea about the symbols on the carvings? Anyone seen anything like this before? I've spent months trying to research this stuff and haven't even found anything remotely similar anywhere on the net.

As far as the sword goes - I'm completely clueless. Hopefully the photos will be clear enough to be able to see the markings of the nude men and women and such. There are very intricate carvings on the base of the blade which were too fine to show up in the photos so I drew them out by hand and they look pretty exact. I hope that is helpful.

Again, I'd really appreciate any light that you guys could shed on this stuff for me. Even if I had a direction to research on, it's better than nothing. Thanks, fellas

)

Best Regards,
Mr. Lace

Aurangzeb · 11th July 2005, 03:58 PM

Hi Lace!

Welcome to the forum! The star with wings is the on the one pictureis the emblem of the WWII Army air-force. So I belive this was made for returing G.I.'s or for those stationed in the Phillipines. I know around WWII some whre made out of the leaf-springs of willy's jeeps. I have one made in that meathod. Can you get me some close-ups of the blade on both sides please so I can see if it's the same case with yours? The sword I have no idea either.

Mark...

Rivkin · 11th July 2005, 04:37 PM

looks like a smallsword to me. Late XVIII, early XIX century ? I'm not a specialist in european stuff, could it be some military pattern ?

buddhantraining · 11th July 2005, 05:02 PM

Thanks guys for the reply!

Aura, I took two close ups of the talibon blade for you: http://share.shutterfly.com/osi.jsp?i=EeANGzhqyZt3DiA I apologize for not being able to share the photos easier. Do you think it's possible that the sheath was made at a later time than when the talibon was made? Not sure how well it shows up in the photos but the sheath's wood is a tad bit lighter than the wood on the knife's handle. I'm surprised by how sharp the blade is on this sucker despite it's obvious signs of frequent use.

Rivkin, what's a smallsword?

Thanks so much again, I really appreciate all of your help.

Mr. Lace

RhysMichael · 11th July 2005, 06:05 PM

Welcome
I do not know much about smallswords but they are civilian swords that I have always been told derived from rapiers,thrusting weapons. They come from around the 17th century forward for a couple hundred years. I hope this helps

Tim Simmons · 11th July 2005, 06:29 PM

I am not really clued up on this sort of thing, but your small or day sword would appear to be most probably early 19th cent. It has the late form of knuckle bow and the cast romantic classical scenes are typical features of this time. As for origin, it is safest to just say NW Europe. In spite of the name there is nothing small about the blade, yours looks particulary strong and though obviously not made for the charge of the light brigade, is more than just decoration or male jewellery for a civilian. Tim

Bill · 11th July 2005, 06:57 PM

I hope there is some comments on the taibon & the carvings on it. The reflection of the flash makes it kind of hard to see, it would be nice to see some closer images. I have a very simular one (minus the carvings) that has providence to 1930's Negros; & have seen them refered to as coming from Luzon but I think they are generally accepted as coming from Cebu, Leyte, Samar & Bohol. Does the lack of the deeper belly indicate location? Not sure what the bottom figure is, the defiant fist of the Katipunan?, is the suit coated hand depicting Jose Rizal?, does the image suggest holding a pistol?

Ian · 11th July 2005, 09:36 PM

The talibon appears to be from approximately the WWII period and most likely comes from the eastern Visayas (Samar, Leyte, Cebu, etc.), as noted already.

Your European small sword appears to be a 19th C. copy of an earlier example, probably based on a mid- to late-18th C. style. The type of blade, with a trefoil blade and exaggerated forte, is termed colichmarde and is found on swords from the mid-18th C. on.

There is a nice discussion of small swords on the SFI Forum here: http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...threadid=51744

Ian.

Aurangzeb · 11th July 2005, 10:20 PM

Hi Lace!

After examining mine and your pictures I whould say yes it was made out of a leaf-spring. One last thing to find out is it flat on one side like it apperers on the pictures and sharpend on the oter or was it sharpend on each side? These are very good knives. The sheath might be later but I don't think so, my talibon's sheath is a light wood while the handldle is darker and harder, but then again the handle on mine don't fit right.

Mark...

Ian · 12th July 2005, 06:00 AM

Lace:

I have uploaded the pictures of your talibon so that we can look at it on this page rather than switching back and forth (you can upload files directly by using the "Attachment" feature found below the text area in the "Posting" page).

The carving on your talibon sheath appears to be typical work from the early 20th C and later. The eagle and crest can be found on several Philippine coins during the period of American colonization, roughly 1900-1945, when the coins of the Philippines were US currency. This is the Philippines style of eagle, not the American style of eagle found on US coins.

The five-pointed star with an inner circle may be a Katipunan symbol, but I am unsure and would have to do some research. Perhaps others have a more definite identification for you. The fist (left-hand in a cuffed shirt sleeve) was a Katipunan symbol of defiance, but it is still found today on Philippine knives and does not necessarily date this knife or scabbard to the period of Katipunan activities during the uprising against Spain and the early years of American rule.

The ensemble is very similar to other knives and scabbards produced in the eastern Visayas immediately after WWII, largely to sell to returning GIs as souvenirs. This part of the Philippines was the first to be liberated from Japanese occupation upon Macarthur's return, and a lot of GIs passed through this area, which probably accounts for the large number of GI bringbacks we see from the eastern Visayas dating to that time.

This style of narrow-bladed knife is fairly common. I have attached a picture of one of mine from around the same time period that has a dog-head pommel, similar narrow blade, and the scabbard has a Philippine coin embedded which shows the eagle and crest.

Ian.

11th July 2005, 02:43 PM	#1
buddhantraining Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 2	Newbie: Lots of Help Needed! Hi Guys, I just found this forum last night (thankfully!) and have been reading as much as I can before I decided to make a post. I could really use everyone's help and would be so grateful for whatever comments I receive on this. Here's the story: A very, very dear friend of mine has given me two arms - a talibon (which I just found out was a talibon last night thanks to you guys!) and a sword. Both are obviously old/antiques/whatever you want to call them. This is my first time even coming into contact with these sorts of things so I truly know nothing about this field of collecting. My friend was given these two pieces when he was a small child and he is now 68 years old - they were antiques when given to him - and he has no knowledge of where they came from or anything else. I'm not familiar with how to post photos so I uploaded them to my Shutterfly account, they can be viewed here: http://share.shutterfly.com/osi.jsp?i=EeANGzhqyZt3DgI Although I know the one is a talibon, I'm a bit confused about it's sheath. The carvings on the sheath seem very patriotic to me which wouldn't make much sense given the age of the talibon. Does anyone have any idea about the symbols on the carvings? Anyone seen anything like this before? I've spent months trying to research this stuff and haven't even found anything remotely similar anywhere on the net. As far as the sword goes - I'm completely clueless. Hopefully the photos will be clear enough to be able to see the markings of the nude men and women and such. There are very intricate carvings on the base of the blade which were too fine to show up in the photos so I drew them out by hand and they look pretty exact. I hope that is helpful. Again, I'd really appreciate any light that you guys could shed on this stuff for me. Even if I had a direction to research on, it's better than nothing. Thanks, fellas ) Best Regards, Mr. Lace

11th July 2005, 06:29 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I am not really clued up on this sort of thing, but your small or day sword would appear to be most probably early 19th cent. It has the late form of knuckle bow and the cast romantic classical scenes are typical features of this time. As for origin, it is safest to just say NW Europe. In spite of the name there is nothing small about the blade, yours looks particulary strong and though obviously not made for the charge of the light brigade, is more than just decoration or male jewellery for a civilian. Tim Last edited by Tim Simmons; 11th July 2005 at 06:31 PM. Reason: spelling

12th July 2005, 06:00 AM	#10
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Lace: I have uploaded the pictures of your talibon so that we can look at it on this page rather than switching back and forth (you can upload files directly by using the "Attachment" feature found below the text area in the "Posting" page). The carving on your talibon sheath appears to be typical work from the early 20th C and later. The eagle and crest can be found on several Philippine coins during the period of American colonization, roughly 1900-1945, when the coins of the Philippines were US currency. This is the Philippines style of eagle, not the American style of eagle found on US coins. The five-pointed star with an inner circle may be a Katipunan symbol, but I am unsure and would have to do some research. Perhaps others have a more definite identification for you. The fist (left-hand in a cuffed shirt sleeve) was a Katipunan symbol of defiance, but it is still found today on Philippine knives and does not necessarily date this knife or scabbard to the period of Katipunan activities during the uprising against Spain and the early years of American rule. The ensemble is very similar to other knives and scabbards produced in the eastern Visayas immediately after WWII, largely to sell to returning GIs as souvenirs. This part of the Philippines was the first to be liberated from Japanese occupation upon Macarthur's return, and a lot of GIs passed through this area, which probably accounts for the large number of GI bringbacks we see from the eastern Visayas dating to that time. This style of narrow-bladed knife is fairly common. I have attached a picture of one of mine from around the same time period that has a dog-head pommel, similar narrow blade, and the scabbard has a Philippine coin embedded which shows the eagle and crest. Ian. Attached Images Last edited by Ian; 12th July 2005 at 06:22 AM.

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11th July 2005, 03:58 PM	#2
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hi Lace! Welcome to the forum! The star with wings is the on the one pictureis the emblem of the WWII Army air-force. So I belive this was made for returing G.I.'s or for those stationed in the Phillipines. I know around WWII some whre made out of the leaf-springs of willy's jeeps. I have one made in that meathod. Can you get me some close-ups of the blade on both sides please so I can see if it's the same case with yours? The sword I have no idea either. Mark...

11th July 2005, 04:37 PM	#3
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	looks like a smallsword to me. Late XVIII, early XIX century ? I'm not a specialist in european stuff, could it be some military pattern ?

11th July 2005, 05:02 PM	#4
buddhantraining Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 2	Thanks guys for the reply! Aura, I took two close ups of the talibon blade for you: http://share.shutterfly.com/osi.jsp?i=EeANGzhqyZt3DiA I apologize for not being able to share the photos easier. Do you think it's possible that the sheath was made at a later time than when the talibon was made? Not sure how well it shows up in the photos but the sheath's wood is a tad bit lighter than the wood on the knife's handle. I'm surprised by how sharp the blade is on this sucker despite it's obvious signs of frequent use. Rivkin, what's a smallsword? Thanks so much again, I really appreciate all of your help. Mr. Lace

11th July 2005, 06:05 PM	#5
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	Welcome I do not know much about smallswords but they are civilian swords that I have always been told derived from rapiers,thrusting weapons. They come from around the 17th century forward for a couple hundred years. I hope this helps

11th July 2005, 06:57 PM	#7
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	I hope there is some comments on the taibon & the carvings on it. The reflection of the flash makes it kind of hard to see, it would be nice to see some closer images. I have a very simular one (minus the carvings) that has providence to 1930's Negros; & have seen them refered to as coming from Luzon but I think they are generally accepted as coming from Cebu, Leyte, Samar & Bohol. Does the lack of the deeper belly indicate location? Not sure what the bottom figure is, the defiant fist of the Katipunan?, is the suit coated hand depicting Jose Rizal?, does the image suggest holding a pistol?

11th July 2005, 09:36 PM	#8
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	The talibon appears to be from approximately the WWII period and most likely comes from the eastern Visayas (Samar, Leyte, Cebu, etc.), as noted already. Your European small sword appears to be a 19th C. copy of an earlier example, probably based on a mid- to late-18th C. style. The type of blade, with a trefoil blade and exaggerated forte, is termed colichmarde and is found on swords from the mid-18th C. on. There is a nice discussion of small swords on the SFI Forum here: http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...threadid=51744 Ian.

11th July 2005, 10:20 PM	#9
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hi Lace! After examining mine and your pictures I whould say yes it was made out of a leaf-spring. One last thing to find out is it flat on one side like it apperers on the pictures and sharpend on the oter or was it sharpend on each side? These are very good knives. The sheath might be later but I don't think so, my talibon's sheath is a light wood while the handldle is darker and harder, but then again the handle on mine don't fit right. Mark...