Help pls. on 15th-17th C. cutlass & scimitar

[migueldiaz]

Hello all!

Following an earlier discussion on cutlasses and scimitars in this thread on the origin of the kampilan, I wish to pursue my amateur research on said cutlasses and scimitars.

I wonder if anyone can point me to a photo or an illustration of the following:

[1] a cutlass (Spanish preferably) used in the 16th century; and

[2] a scimitar of the type used in Europe during the 15th to the 17th century.

Thanks in advance!

[fernando]

Hi Lorenz

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

... a scimitar of the type used in Europe during the 15th to the 17th century ...

Do you mean a scimitar used by the Moors in Europe ?
... Not that i can illustrate it; just to make sure that i well understand you. You know the term is a bit tricky.

Fernando

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Lorenz

Do you mean a scimitar used by the Moors in Europe ?
... Not that i can illustrate it; just to make sure that i well understand you. You know the term is a bit tricky.

Fernando

Hello Fernando,

Yes sir that was what I meant, a scimitar used by Moors in Europe.

And pardon the stupid question and my ignorance, but could there have been a scimitar or a scimitar-inspired sword that were developed and used by Europeans during the same said period (15th to 17th Century)?

In other words, would a scimitar be a weapon that was used exclusively by Moors?

Just to be fully transparent, I am not asking the above questions because I already have an idea of what the answer is, and I merely want to validate my own hunch. Remember that I'm an practically ignorant on the subject and thus any info or pic or illustration would be truly appreciated!

Best wishes,

Lorenz

[fernando]

Hi Lorenz
These things of weapons typology and their semanthics are never elementary ... isn't that right?
I have one source saying that the term scimitar, cimitar or scimeter is a medieval europeanization of the Persian term shamsheer. It appears that the Arab term for this sword would be saif.
The so called scimitar is said to have being be used by Turcs, Persian and Arabs, specially by Muslims, hence used by the Moors that have been in Europe, when they invaded the Iberian Peninsula.
Some say that the European falchion is a copy of it, some others don't agree.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falchion
The picture attached depicts a scimitar of the type usually painted in our churchs, during the middle ages, when the Moor, the Jew and the three Magic Kings were represented with scimitars.
These swords demand for extraordinary strength; they were often used for executions and animal sacrifices. Their advantage over European swords was that they could break sword guards and left hand daggers with their circular strike.
Mind you Lorenz, this is only for entertaining you, till the experts come around and offer their skilled views.

Fernando

.

[celtan]

Hi Nando,

Nice to see you again on these "lares". : )
I agree with you on the nature of the falcon. The spanish didn't have a cutlass per se until the early 19th C., when the Brit M 1804-05 began being fabricated (briefly) at Toledo. The M1728 regulation sword, sometimes with a field cut-down blade, was regularly used by the Navy. Otherwise, used cutlasses were mostly of Dutch, German and British provenance.

The arabs imported many customs to Iberia, and in fact, most of the so-called moors were eventually Iberian christians who had converted to Islam for many practical motives which do not need be discussed here. Thus, scimitars were also used by the autoctonous european "muslims". OTOH, the arabs also began adopting the type of weapons regularly used in Iberia, of Roman-Germanic style, with long straight or tapered blades, as the famed Tizona (Coaled/Burnt) reflects.

BTW: I can't picture Don Roderic Diaz de Vivar parrying an alfanje with a main-gauche. Perhaps later in the 16th C as with Cervantes in Lepanto against the Turks..?

Take care

Fortuna, Vino y Mujeres!

Manolo

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Lorenz
These things of weapons typology and their semanthics are never elementary ... isn't that right?
I have one source saying that the term scimitar, cimitar or scimeter is a medieval europeanization of the Persian term shamsheer. It appears that the Arab term for this sword would be saif.
The so called scimitar is said to have being be used by Turcs, Persian and Arabs, specially by Muslims, hence used by the Moors that have been in Europe, when they invaded the Iberian Peninsula.
Some say that the European falchion is a copy of it, some others don't agree.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falchion
The picture attached depicts a scimitar of the type usually painted in our churchs, during the middle ages, when the Moor, the Jew and the three Magic Kings were represented with scimitars.
These swords demand for extraordinary strength; they were often used for executions and animal sacrifices. Their advantage over European swords was that they could break sword guards and left hand daggers with their circular strike.
Mind you Lorenz, this is only for entertaining you, till the experts come around and offer their skilled views.

Fernando

.

[migueldiaz]

Hola Manuel Luis

Thanks, too, for the additional info. I appreciate it!

As an aside and about El Cid, finally I saw the movie (starring Charlton Heston & Sofia Loren) the other day. I like it a lot ... very inspiring.

Had 16th century "Philippines" (an anachronism I understand) only had its El Cid, then the Igorots, Tagalogs, Bisayans, Moros, and all other 'tribes' would had fought side by side against the Spaniards and other would-be colonizers

But divide-and-conquer works all the time, that's for sure Had ancient Filipinos played the role of colonizers in history, I'm sure they would have used the same strategy.

And I'm not trying to open a can of worms here!

Best wishes to all.

PS - From Wikipedia, on El Cid's swords:

A weapon traditionally identified as El Cid's sword, Tizona [pic attached], can still be seen in the Army Museum (Museo del Ejército) in Madrid. In 1999, a small sample of the blade underwent metallurgical analysis which confirmed that the blade was made in Moorish Córdoba in the eleventh century and contained amounts of Damascus steel [citation needed].

In 2007 the Autonomous Community of Castile and León bought the sword for 1.6 million Euros, and it is currently on display at the Museum of Burgos.

El Cid also had a sword called Colada.

Both swords have been misrepresented in popular culture. La Tizona was actually a one-handed sword, in the late roman style, whereas La Colada was a two-handed sword, greater in length.

Originally Posted by celtan

Hi Nando,

Nice to see you again on these "lares". : )
I agree with you on the nature of the falcon. The spanish didn't have a cutlass per se until the early 19th C., when the Brit M 1804-05 began being fabricated (briefly) at Toledo. The M1728 regulation sword, sometimes with a field cut-down blade, was regularly used by the Navy. Otherwise, used cutlasses were mostly of Dutch, German and British provenance.

The arabs imported many customs to Iberia, and in fact, most of the so-called moors were eventually Iberian christians who had converted to Islam for many practical motives which do not need be discussed here. Thus, scimitars were also used by the autoctonous european "muslims". OTOH, the arabs also began adopting the type of weapons regularly used in Iberia, of Roman-Germanic style, with long straight or tapered blades, as the famed Tizona (Coaled/Burnt) reflects.

BTW: I can't picture Don Roderic Diaz de Vivar parrying an alfanje with a main-gauche. Perhaps later in the 16th C as with Cervantes in Lepanto against the Turks..?

Take care

Fortuna, Vino y Mujeres!

Manolo

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

I wonder if anyone can point me to a photo or an illustration of the following: [1] a cutlass (Spanish preferably) used in the 16th century; and ...

Originally Posted by celtan

... The spanish didn't have a cutlass per se until the early 19th C., when the Brit M 1804-05 began being fabricated (briefly) at Toledo. The M1728 regulation sword, sometimes with a field cut-down blade, was regularly used by the Navy. Otherwise, used cutlasses were mostly of Dutch, German and British provenance.

Thanks Manuel for this clarification! Appreciate it.

Dear all,

It would appear then that my query as posed originally would be an anachronism. So I guess I'd have to rephrase the inquiry as, "Can anybody please post here any image or info of a 16th Century Spanish sword?"

Now precisely on that specific subject, I found these two [below] 16th Century Spanish swords, at Arma Española as cited earlier.

I've tried using Yahoo! Babelfish for the translation. But I'm getting a not-so-clear translation. Can I kindly request for a proper English translation of the texts?

Thanks in advance!

[migueldiaz]

Olá Fernando,

Obrigado muito!

Hey, you are certainly one of the experts in the subject. And I appreciate the info and the picture.

Indeed navigating these 'waters' can be tricky, as said. Thus all info or lead will help a lot. So thanks again! ...

PS - By the way, a friend graciously pointed me to this information-rich website on Spanish swords!

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Lorenz
These things of weapons typology and their semanthics are never elementary ... isn't that right?
I have one source saying that the term scimitar, cimitar or scimeter is a medieval europeanization of the Persian term shamsheer. It appears that the Arab term for this sword would be saif.
The so called scimitar is said to have being be used by Turcs, Persian and Arabs, specially by Muslims, hence used by the Moors that have been in Europe, when they invaded the Iberian Peninsula.
Some say that the European falchion is a copy of it, some others don't agree.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falchion
The picture attached depicts a scimitar of the type usually painted in our churchs, during the middle ages, when the Moor, the Jew and the three Magic Kings were represented with scimitars.
These swords demand for extraordinary strength; they were often used for executions and animal sacrifices. Their advantage over European swords was that they could break sword guards and left hand daggers with their circular strike.
Mind you Lorenz, this is only for entertaining you, till the experts come around and offer their skilled views.

Fernando

.