Kindi on swords and iron

[Jens Nordlunde]

In Medieval Islamic Swords and Sword making, Kindi’s treatise ‘On swords and their kinds’, by Robert G. Hoyland and Brian Gilmour, 2006, there is something interesting when Kindi describes the Frankish sword – here is a quote.

Page 42 ……[And] on their foreparts are crescent moons filled with yellow copper or gold, or a cross likewise filled [with yellow copper or gold]. And among them are some that have an incision in one part of their structure into which a nail of gold or yellow copper has been worked. Sometimes in the most well-formed [ancient] Yemeni swords that nail was also nailed with gold into its structure or tip. ……

Kindi is assumed to have lived in the first half of the 7th century AD, so the use of copper/gold nails is very ancient, as I suppose it is older than he is, and we both know that using the crescent moon is far older than Islam, but it is interesting that he mentions it. I wonder what Kindi means when he refer to ‘ancient Yemeni’ swords – how old would they be? Worth noticing too is, that he describes swords from ten different places, but it is only on the Frankish swords he describes markings like this.

Page 21 ……The Sri Lankan [swords] is divided into four categories. Among them are those forged in Sri Lanka. And among them are the Khurasani, which are those brought from Sri Lanka and its iron worked in Khurasan. And among them are the Mansuri, of which the iron is brought from Sri Lanka and they are forged at Mansura. And among them are the Frasi, of which the iron is brought from Sri Lanka and forged in Fars, and they are called imperial. The latter is itself divided into two categories: those bearing figures and trees and other images, and the plain swords.

Interesting to read about the early iron export within India, but they did of course also export iron to the Arabian Peninsula and to other places – we are in the early 7th century AD, so this export had been going on for centuries.

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Kindi is assumed to have lived in the first half of the 7th century AD, so the use of copper/gold nails is very ancient, as I suppose it is older than he is, and we both know that using the crescent moon is far older than Islam, but it is interesting that he mentions it. I wonder what Kindi means when he refer to ‘ancient Yemeni’ swords – how old would they be? Worth noticing too is, that he describes swords from ten different places, but it is only on the Frankish swords he describes markings like this. Interesting to read about the early iron export within India, but they did of course also export iron to the Arabian Peninsula and to other places – we are in the early 7th century AD, so this export had been going on for centuries.

Al-Kindi lived on the 9th Century, according with the sources. It is hipothesized that Yemen was a main productor center of wattered "procesed iron" (wootz, probably) and swords, which also were made there from the "procesed watered iron" form Sri-Lanka. It also is hipothesized that this production reached it´s peak in pre-muslim times, and that the end of the iranian rule, the demise of the Himyarite dynasty and the shift to the northeast (Baghdad) of the political and ecomical mainstream, finished this production. As you know, this points are expresed by Robert G. Hoyland and Brian Gilmour.

The exports of watered "procesed iron" in fact mentions Mansur, but Mansur was at that moment on arab hands, if I recall correctly, as it was part of the Sindh. Mansur was probably located in today´s Brahmanabad, on Pakistan. More interstingly, the watered "procesed iron" was exported to Bukhara. It is also said that the frankish swords probably were known from the trade with the Viking-Rus, the oriental commercial colony vikings established in today´s west Russia, but it is also known that the franks used the swords as one of their main export products during the Middle Ages. Before and after the settled on France.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Gonzalo, Thank you for the correction. Kindi is supposed to have been born around 800 AD and died around 860 AD, so it should of course have been 9th century. Mansura was the chief city of Muslim Sind, founded in the 8th century, now a ruin some 45 miles northeast of Hyderabad in Pakistan.

[RhysMichael]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

In Medieval Islamic Swords and Sword making, Kindi’s treatise ‘On swords and their kinds’, by Robert G. Hoyland and Brian Gilmour, 2006, there is something interesting when Kindi describes the Frankish sword – here is a quote.

Page 42 ……[And] on their foreparts are crescent moons filled with yellow copper or gold, or a cross likewise filled [with yellow copper or gold]. And among them are some that have an incision in one part of their structure into which a nail of gold or yellow copper has been worked. Sometimes in the most well-formed [ancient] Yemeni swords that nail was also nailed with gold into its structure or tip. ……

.

Could this be the first written reference to the origin of the half moon or cresent moon mark we now see on kaskara and such even today ?

[Jens Nordlunde]

I don’t know if it is the first written reference, but it is the oldest one I have seen, that is why I found it interesting.

It has now and again been discussed if the round gold/copper/braze marking on blades would make the blades weaker. However the mention of nails made me think that the hole in the blade does not have to be very big. A small hole in the blade for the nail to go through would be enough, and the head of the nail and the rest of the nail could be hammered flat on either side of the blade, so both would look like if the hole had been bigger. Maybe that is how it was made.

[olikara]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

A small hole in the blade for the nail to go through would be enough, and the head of the nail and the rest of the nail could be hammered flat on either side of the blade, so both would look like if the hole had been bigger. Maybe that is how it was made.

Yes, Jens. Your hypothesis makes sense.

[Gonzalo G]

Jens, that point of the location of the city interests me. I have a document from M. H. Panhwar which states that: "Capital of Sindh was shifted from Alore to Mansura Yazid Ali Kalbi. Archaeological evidence so far collected shows that Brahmanabad and Mansura are two names of same city." Could it be another Mansura? Also, "The Arabs did not destroy Brahmanabad and therefore it should have survived side by side. Arab travelers Ibn Haukal and Istakhri who visited in 951 AD have said in Sindhi, Mansura is called Brahmanabad, (Bamiwan, which is close to Babanwa or Brahman, Bamra or
Banbhriya) showing thereby that the town had retained its earlier name among the local populance, but Arabs called Mansura." I don´t have more information, so if you can, please give me more references to check. I have many black holes in this area.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Jens Nordlunde]

Gonzalo, I have tried to Google, and there seem to be quite a number of places called Mansura. I don’t know anything more than I have told you so far, as it all comes from the book I quoted, but I have a map showing a town called Mansura. If it is this town, I doubt very much that it is a ruin town any more.