Rare Pilipino Swords....

Spunjer · 13th April 2005, 03:00 AM

...just came off ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...524280544&rd=1
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...524281233&rd=1

seems like the seller put up the wrong date. older pieces perhaps?

btw, congrats to the winners...

Edit : with the sellers kind permission I am posting the pictures of the talibon/garab and the Mandaya bolo for future reference .

tom hyle · 13th April 2005, 03:31 AM

The top one is a talibon, of the type now starting to be referred to as garab. It looks like a 19th c. one, AFAIK. It's just like the pictures in the books, and rather large, and this style is beginning to generate quite a lot of interest. The other of course, appears to be a Mandaya sword. It appears to have been etched to show an inlaid edge toward the tip. Also, note its handle is similar to those on some talibons (plamenkos?) we recently discussed. I was watching these; all I could afford to do

Spunjer · 13th April 2005, 11:18 AM

so that's a garab! i've been calling it talibon. yeah, battara thinks it's much older that what the seller stated. would anyone else care to comment about this sword?

the mandaya sword looks to be in great condition. i believe this type of sword was being discussed on the kampilan thread. funny how the prices of these swords jacks up whenever it's discussed. comments?

Battara · 13th April 2005, 12:41 PM

Rsword and I believe the Mandaya sword to be 1930s, though for me the scabbard maybe a little later. Here is a link to an old discussion on the matter:

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000548.html

tom hyle · 13th April 2005, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

funny how the prices of these swords jacks up whenever it's discussed. comments?

Yeah, we suck like that. Visayan swords were about to get popular, anyway (near to Moro in geography, design, and quality, as the Moro ones get pricier; same for Lumad), but we hastened this, I do not doubt, and not only that, but it was gonna be the binagons and tenegres with the Moro-like long cone ferules, not talibons, IMHO, but now this "book style" talibon is through the roof; watched one go for $500 at auction the other day! Keep in mind it was hard to get $50 for one less than 5 years ago. Good thing I do already own a very closely related style, but it doesn't have the "book pommel", and you know things have to look like the book(etc.) picture; 1/2 again the price and double the salabilty right there

Rick · 13th April 2005, 02:30 PM

The rattan bindings on this sword look pretty bright compared to this example Artzi sold me , he dated it to the late 19c.

This example http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...6524280544&rd=1 could of course been re-wrapped around or during WWII to refurbish it . The carving is pretty crisp also which might point to a newer example .

Battara · 13th April 2005, 05:06 PM

I would not be too sure of "newness". Here is a picture of the hilt of my talibon and it has an old inscription on the scabbard of "Tagbilaran 1901" where the forces on Bohol surrendered to the Americans (many were from Cebu). Notice the lighter color of the rattan bindings and the crispness of the carving. Unfortunately, part of the hilt is damaged.

Ian · 13th April 2005, 07:48 PM

Spunjer:

Both the garab and the Mandayan bolo appear to be in very good condition and perhaps not all that old. I agree with Rick that the garab, in particular, looks remarkably pristine.

From their appearances, both of them could have been made in the mid- to late-20th C. but could also be earlier examples that were acquired in excellent (unused) condition and maintained well by a previous owner.

I was a participant in bidding on the Mandaya bolo, but another forumite beat me on that one. Hopefully we will see some more pictures. Oh well, win some - lose some -- the collector's motto.

Ian.

Spunjer · 29th April 2005, 03:16 PM

are visayan swords laminated? any examples?

Ian · 29th April 2005, 08:48 PM

Spunjer:

Hardened edges -- yes, very common.

Laminated blades -- I haven't etched enough Visayan blades to answer how commonly they may be laminated, but my impression is that laminated (pattern-welded) blades are much less common than blades of homogenous steel with an inserted or tempered hardened edge.

Zel probably has the best handle on this question.

Ian.

tom hyle · 30th April 2005, 12:42 AM

Traditional Visayan swords I've known are commonly lineal folded steel that has been welded for homogeneity and usually edge-hardened (occasionally spring tempered). Temper lines vary considerably, but stop at or often short of the unsharp shaft at the base of the blade. However, I have seen some (old) ones with inlaid/scarf-welded edges, and currently have a nice big talibon/garab that though I haven't etched it, and may well not, seems to exhibit such. So, yes, they are laminated, though it may depend on what you mean by laminated, and seems to vary with time, if nothing else.

Ian · 30th April 2005, 02:09 AM

Well put. That was what I was trying to say.

tom hyle · 30th April 2005, 03:01 AM

I'd love to know more, especially re the scarf welded edges; are they the older way, as we might expect? Are they seen on mandau? the scarf-welded chiselground blade, often with an overall wedge section is common on Japanese work knives, and I gather it was once seen on Japanese fighting swords, so there seems to be some sort of Oceanic E Asian thing going on (reference the tangs, too, BTW; and when one looks at spears and floormats and much other material culture along the interface of Asia and Pacific one sees a relation.........of course?); I have a feeling that this may be a thing that once was common in places where it modernly is not, but that's all I have; speculation and knowledge from swords and possibly from dimly remembered sailors' and/or collectors' tales re the ancestralness of the c-bevel and/or scarfed-edge blade............

Spunjer · 30th April 2005, 05:48 AM

Quote:

...it may depend on what you mean by laminated, and seems to vary with time, if nothing else.

tom, what i mean when i say laminated, something similar to a moro sword, particularly the barung.
could you please elaborate more on this statement: "commonly lineal folded steel that has been welded for homogeneity and usually edge-hardened ". does that mean that if i etch a blade that has that characteristic, what i would get is a very dark edge, almost black, and the rest of the blade is gray, without those "topographic" lines?

tom hyle · 13th March 2011, 01:57 PM

My garab definitely has a scarf-welded edge. ModernVisayan swords tend to be homogenous steel with a differential temper. Interesting thread found while searching for machete filipiana......

Battara · 13th March 2011, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

ModernVisayan swords tend to be homogenous steel with a differential temper.

I have found this too on turn of the century Visayan pieces as well.......

13th April 2005, 03:00 AM	#1
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	Rare Pilipino Swords.... ...just came off ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...524280544&rd=1 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...524281233&rd=1 seems like the seller put up the wrong date. older pieces perhaps? btw, congrats to the winners... Edit : with the sellers kind permission I am posting the pictures of the talibon/garab and the Mandaya bolo for future reference . Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 13th April 2005 at 09:04 PM.

13th April 2005, 11:18 AM	#3
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	so that's a garab! i've been calling it talibon. yeah, battara thinks it's much older that what the seller stated. would anyone else care to comment about this sword? the mandaya sword looks to be in great condition. i believe this type of sword was being discussed on the kampilan thread. funny how the prices of these swords jacks up whenever it's discussed. comments? Last edited by Spunjer; 13th April 2005 at 11:53 AM.

13th April 2005, 02:30 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,287	Garab The rattan bindings on this sword look pretty bright compared to this example Artzi sold me , he dated it to the late 19c. This example http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...6524280544&rd=1 could of course been re-wrapped around or during WWII to refurbish it . The carving is pretty crisp also which might point to a newer example . Attached Images

13th April 2005, 05:06 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,200	I would not be too sure of "newness". Here is a picture of the hilt of my talibon and it has an old inscription on the scabbard of "Tagbilaran 1901" where the forces on Bohol surrendered to the Americans (many were from Cebu). Notice the lighter color of the rattan bindings and the crispness of the carving. Unfortunately, part of the hilt is damaged. Attached Images

30th April 2005, 02:09 AM	#12
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,167	Thanks Tom ... Well put. That was what I was trying to say.

13th April 2005, 03:31 AM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The top one is a talibon, of the type now starting to be referred to as garab. It looks like a 19th c. one, AFAIK. It's just like the pictures in the books, and rather large, and this style is beginning to generate quite a lot of interest. The other of course, appears to be a Mandaya sword. It appears to have been etched to show an inlaid edge toward the tip. Also, note its handle is similar to those on some talibons (plamenkos?) we recently discussed. I was watching these; all I could afford to do

13th April 2005, 12:41 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,200	Rsword and I believe the Mandaya sword to be 1930s, though for me the scabbard maybe a little later. Here is a link to an old discussion on the matter: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000548.html

13th April 2005, 07:48 PM	#8
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,167	Spunjer: Both the garab and the Mandayan bolo appear to be in very good condition and perhaps not all that old. I agree with Rick that the garab, in particular, looks remarkably pristine. From their appearances, both of them could have been made in the mid- to late-20th C. but could also be earlier examples that were acquired in excellent (unused) condition and maintained well by a previous owner. I was a participant in bidding on the Mandaya bolo, but another forumite beat me on that one. Hopefully we will see some more pictures. Oh well, win some - lose some -- the collector's motto. Ian.

29th April 2005, 03:16 PM	#9
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	are visayan swords laminated? any examples?

29th April 2005, 08:48 PM	#10
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,167	Spunjer: Hardened edges -- yes, very common. Laminated blades -- I haven't etched enough Visayan blades to answer how commonly they may be laminated, but my impression is that laminated (pattern-welded) blades are much less common than blades of homogenous steel with an inserted or tempered hardened edge. Zel probably has the best handle on this question. Ian.

30th April 2005, 12:42 AM	#11
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Traditional Visayan swords I've known are commonly lineal folded steel that has been welded for homogeneity and usually edge-hardened (occasionally spring tempered). Temper lines vary considerably, but stop at or often short of the unsharp shaft at the base of the blade. However, I have seen some (old) ones with inlaid/scarf-welded edges, and currently have a nice big talibon/garab that though I haven't etched it, and may well not, seems to exhibit such. So, yes, they are laminated, though it may depend on what you mean by laminated, and seems to vary with time, if nothing else.

30th April 2005, 03:01 AM	#13
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I'd love to know more, especially re the scarf welded edges; are they the older way, as we might expect? Are they seen on mandau? the scarf-welded chiselground blade, often with an overall wedge section is common on Japanese work knives, and I gather it was once seen on Japanese fighting swords, so there seems to be some sort of Oceanic E Asian thing going on (reference the tangs, too, BTW; and when one looks at spears and floormats and much other material culture along the interface of Asia and Pacific one sees a relation.........of course?); I have a feeling that this may be a thing that once was common in places where it modernly is not, but that's all I have; speculation and knowledge from swords and possibly from dimly remembered sailors' and/or collectors' tales re the ancestralness of the c-bevel and/or scarfed-edge blade............

13th March 2011, 01:57 PM	#15
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	My garab definitely has a scarf-welded edge. ModernVisayan swords tend to be homogenous steel with a differential temper. Interesting thread found while searching for machete filipiana......