Sword 12/13 century or not?

[serdar]

One collector from neighbour country has this sword, i like it very much, it has a great balance in the hand, but it is, or it is not, that is the question, an artefact or piece of trash, if someone could help.

[Ed]

It looks OK to me but but but fakers are fakers because they fake.

Any idea as to provenance?

[corrado26]

I'm not an expert on edged weapons, but the piece just looks too good for me! An iron object that is said to be 700 or 800 years old will certainly look different in terms of surface structure. My opinion.

[Radboud]

Too many fakers out there to risk it I'm afraid.

This one has a couple of red flags to me, not least that the corrosion looks too consistent and 'fresh'.

I would give it a wide bearth personally.

[serdar]

It handles wery well in the hand, i was 50/50 on its originality, so i didnt take it.

But will examine it further on xrf and then i will compare with similar specimen allso localy found that is in museum.

[Bob A]

The uniformity of corrosion, and the apparent lack of actual use, push me to suspect its bona fides.

On the other hand, if it is offered at a reasonable price, a handsome, well-balanced fake has its own interest.

I don't know if analysis of the metal would be informative, but I suspect that it would tell the tale.

[serdar]

Originally Posted by Ed

It looks OK to me but but but fakers are fakers because they fake.

Any idea as to provenance?

Provenance, curent owner got it after old owner died, he got it fromriver near their town it was in a mud in the river.

As he stated.

[Will M]

We have two problems here, one is we tend to assume it's fake and secondly using digital photos online cannot tell us everything one needs to make a good assessment. Corrosion levels are dependent on a number of factors and we don't know this either. Expert research may be required.

[ulfberth]

This sword is a fake there is absolutely no doubth about it, some may need further hands on research but not this one.
XRF examination can show the composition of the alloys used in steel but nothing more, it can not show you if its original or not, it shows the composition of the steel.

[Will M]

I agree this is likely a modern sword that has been corroded to fake age. Straight edges have not lost any material and overall corrosion is even. The metal impurities would cause some uneven corrosion and loss that is not seen here. However stating it's fake without providing proof/reference isn't very helpful, it's interesting to know what you see that leads you to your conclusion.

[ulfberth]

yes i understand it is interesting, but I will never tell the fine details on an open forum because it will teach people with certain intentions what to do better and different next time they want make something like this.
The question was : fake or not. the answer is : fake !

[serdar]

Thank you all on coments, metal can be tested both from this sword or another one and then compared with sword found in tje same area that is prowen original example.

Regarding claims someting is fake, every one has right to his opinion and to claim what ever, BUT i agree with Will M if someone says that something is a fake but wont say why, becouse of what and give me a 100% accurate proofs of that, i wont even speeak about that, nor take that in acount, there are too many wolfs in sheeps skin, even on this forum, i learned that hard way.

And fraze "i wont write becouse someone can use that" is for small children, forgers work with museum curators, and they allready know those details if they exist.

And please, dont make argument from this or go in discussion.

Point is simple, if something is 100% fake, write, say, and Prove that with 100% evidences, only that is straight game and fair, everything else is wolf in shhep skin.

Thank you.

[Lee]

I collected these sort of things for about three decades. When I started in the 1980s, I only encountered examples in the market occasionally and although I was truly a noob, wet behind bat ears, I did well because the items in the market were almost always authentic antiques and because lesser examples in excavated condition were simply not in great demand.

I have been inactive in this market now for over a decade, though with very little trouble on the web I can find at least a dozen examples of objects on offer appearing to be European medieval swords - all in better condition and with finer decoration than what I have collected.

I occasionally get inquiries from aspiring collectors as to whether an example they are considering purchasing is "older than I am." For analogy, consider a stool with three legs: 1) connoisseurship - overall form and decoration, nature and quality of workmanship and patina; 2) objective technical data - XRF for surface and shallow elemental composition, X-ray and metallography; and 3) provenance - and here if there are no verifiable details be cynical. With only a set of images you are maintaining a very precarious balance.

I am a fairly unhelpful and useless consultant as I have only two unqualified responses as I gather in all the information presented. I am either "enthusiastic" meaning I'd strongly consider finding the cash to buy the item or I am "afraid" and would decline. If I could generate a score number for my overall impression it would rarely be 100% confident or a 0% condemnation. But probably my calibration would place a score less than 80% under 'afraid' and decline. This calibration should occasionally cause me to reject an important and authentic example. Such a failure in that direction has yet to be proven and a 95% threshold would likely have saved me money without significant lost opportunities.

So now, donning my moderator's hat, may I remind members that when they present an item to the membership for opinions, that is exactly what they are going to get - opinions from varying degrees of expertise based on incomplete and remote data. I have had items condemned here for which I remain confident. Search my history and you shall find that I have practiced what I preach - thank members for their opinions, as almost always these have been offered in good faith, even on those occasions when they may not be correct.

[serdar]

To get back to object of this thread, no one said this sword is authentic, that is a reason i didn't buy it because I'm not sure, but i will get all analyses done and if it shows it is authentic then i will buy it.

Opinion is one thing, but claiming something is a 100% fake without any prooves is completely another thing.

It isnt realy a hard to analyse sword and list data of metal, production method and age, and compare, sure it costs but it costs far less then to buy a fake, i learned my lesson with two fake swords i bought and presented on this forum.

By the story of current owner of this sword, it was excavated from mud from river of near town, i saw several swords excavated from that same river that are in a museum, and they are in excellent condition, so it wont be such problem to analyse and compare with those swords.

There are few red flags to me, ne damages, even surface, those two can be explained, but to me bigest is handle or better to say hilt pattina, it should be diferent and wood and lether should be partialy preserved in that perfect conditions, or shoud leave a trace, but it is all uniform pattina, who knows, analyse will tell.

One needs to be patient and listen to himselfe, his feeling, and offcourse check and analyse things, and be aware of "all knowing experts" that sell you their offcourse "original" swords....

[serdar]

Regarding those two swords posted by jim, i saw several like those that look worn out, old, perfect, genuine, in one european auction house, deemed fakes in origin from Hungary, they refuse to put them in an auction.

Sometime perfect condition antique are real, another time worn expected condition antiqe isnt, who would know.