repurposed rapier blades

urbanspaceman · 2nd January 2025, 02:27 PM

Hello Folks; wishing you all the best for '25.
Hi Jim. You will recall that just last week I suggested that the Portuguese and Spanish appeared to prefer their slim rapier blades on small-sword hilts, rather than the rapidly becoming ubiquitous 'hollowed' blades. I wondered if there was many examples of Iberian smallswords with hollow blades.
I have two swords: one is a Portuguese smallsword/court-sword with a re-purposed slim rapier blade, and the other a Spanish court-sword hilt, again on a slim rapier blade (see below).
Until the arrival of Klingenthal manufacturing, hollow blades only came from Solingen and Shotley Bridge; I don't know what political circumstances existed between these countries which may have made it necessary – or opportune – to re-use what would obviously have been a profusion of rapier blades in Portugal and Spain.
I have never seen a hollow-bladed smallsword distinctly attributed to Portugal or Spain and I am beginning to suspect they did not predominate; however, my experience is limited and – consequently – I call on the forum to disabuse me of my suspicions if necessary… Fernando would know for sure.
It seems absolutely possible that the blades they had carried and fought-with so effectively, and for so long, would not be abandoned causally, and certainly not to oblige fashions.

Jim McDougall · 3rd January 2025, 06:23 AM

Keith, thank you for posting this interesting conundrum!
As we have discussed, it seems that the Spanish rapier blades of the 16th century remained in favor for virtually generations after the demise of Toledo in the mid 17th century. By about the 1630s, the innovative machine of Solingen was producing blades spuriously marked with markings and names of famed earlier makers of Toledo. These were mostly broadsword blades and others, but included the thin thrusting blades common to the Spanish rapier.

The Spanish swordsman was known for the mysterious, geometrical and occult oriented system of fence known as DESTREZA, commonly referred to in fencing references as 'the Spanish fight'. By the end of the 17th century, the beloved cup hilt rapiers of Spain were giving way to a smaller, lighter and faster sword for fencing regarded primarily as a French innovation though it as well known across Europe.

The 'French' style of fencing primarily based on the 'smallsword' became dominant through the 18th century. The Spaniards, in the Peninsula largely adopted the French manner and of course the swords, nominally.
However, in the colonies in the Americas outside the direct influence of the Spanish courts in the Peninsula, the traditional elements of destreza remained very much in practice.
The strong hold to Castilian tradition remained in place in the Americas well through the 18th century into the 19th,

In the latter 17th century, the Solingen made blades for various types of swords were shipped in volume to the Americas and certainly well into the 18th, the double edged rapier blades were profoundly in these numbers.

In recent years, the wreck of a Spanish nao was found off Panama with many crates of these raoier blades, and had gone down in 1681. These raoier blades had continually been exported into the Americas literally for generations, and were regarded as 'TOLEDO' blades (for the familiar markings) despite typically being of Solingen production. Attached photo of one of these blades.

In the Americas, well into the 1800s, officers and those of high station used the now familiar small sword, however rather than the typical trefoil blade used in most European versions, Spaniards preferred the traditional TOLEDO blade. This is well noted in "Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821 (Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain , 1972). where three of these swords, stated origin MEXICO clearly with small sword hilts and TOLEDO blades. These date end of 18th century.

While these examples are from the colonies (i.e. Mexico) and likely mounted with blades long already in these regions, possibly either stored or long in circulation, they do in degree reflect the propensity for Spaniards preferring their traditional rapier blades.

In my own experience, I must agree to not having seen examples of any Iberian smallswords or court swords which were mounted with the type blades (trefoil or colichemarde) characteristically on the European (or American ) versions. Obviously there will likely be exceptions, however I agree that 'typically' the earlier form of Spanish rapier blade prevailed on Spanish swords, as well it seems even on some English swords.

urbanspaceman · 3rd January 2025, 02:57 PM

One thing is for certain, and that is the balance/weight of the rapier blade in a smallsword hilt: it is much further forward compared to a trefoil blade. This will certainly influence the style of fighting; the rapier blade will demand a great degree of destreza compared to the modern smallsword techniques. I would imagine this alone would influence to repurposing of the rapier blade.
I will pull down some swords from the wall and measure them to include in my next post.

Jim McDougall · 3rd January 2025, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

One thing is for certain, and that is the balance/weight of the rapier blade in a smallsword hilt: it is much further forward compared to a trefoil blade. This will certainly influence the style of fighting; the rapier blade will demand a great degree of destreza compared to the modern smallsword techniques. I would imagine this alone would influence to repurposing of the rapier blade.
I will pull down some swords from the wall and measure them to include in my next post.

Well observed Keith! The destreza is much different in that there is much less contact, more traversing (circling) one guard (right angle, point and shoulder in line). There is less blade to blade contact.
With the small sword, more dynamic, faster and more blade to blade, parrys etc.
The balance on this espadin is remarkable. Blade 31.5".

urbanspaceman · 3rd January 2025, 10:36 PM

Well… so much for my theory!
I compared the Portuguese, rapier bladed, smallsword with a typical silver-hilted French hollow blade smallsword and surprise, surprise: both have 32" blades and both have a balance point at 4" from the shell; identical!
Admittedly, 32" is generally the maximum length for a small-sword, although colichemardes tend to be at least that, and often a little longer.
If you look carefully, you will see that the tang of the rapier blade has been reduced at the ricasso as well as being shortened at the foible, producing this balanced weight.
All together, I would imagine there is little to choose between the two as far as technique is concerned which would have been very satisfactory back then with all those rapier blades to choose from.
ps
Note the King's Head punzone on the ricasso.

Jim McDougall · 4th January 2025, 04:12 AM

Im not sure your theory is deflated Keith, and I cannot speak with any authority on the trefoil smallsword blades, Ive never handled one. What I know is this is by far well balanced and light, certainly well suited for destreza in which your arm is extended directly in line with the shoulder. This is the prime guard for destreza, in fact the only guard position.

As you noted earlier, and I was remiss in not noting, if Fernando was here he could truly set these matters straight as his knowledge on Iberian rapiers was beyond reproach. He is truly missed.

2nd January 2025, 02:27 PM	#1
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 565	repurposed rapier blades Hello Folks; wishing you all the best for '25. Hi Jim. You will recall that just last week I suggested that the Portuguese and Spanish appeared to prefer their slim rapier blades on small-sword hilts, rather than the rapidly becoming ubiquitous 'hollowed' blades. I wondered if there was many examples of Iberian smallswords with hollow blades. I have two swords: one is a Portuguese smallsword/court-sword with a re-purposed slim rapier blade, and the other a Spanish court-sword hilt, again on a slim rapier blade (see below). Until the arrival of Klingenthal manufacturing, hollow blades only came from Solingen and Shotley Bridge; I don't know what political circumstances existed between these countries which may have made it necessary – or opportune – to re-use what would obviously have been a profusion of rapier blades in Portugal and Spain. I have never seen a hollow-bladed smallsword distinctly attributed to Portugal or Spain and I am beginning to suspect they did not predominate; however, my experience is limited and – consequently – I call on the forum to disabuse me of my suspicions if necessary… Fernando would know for sure. It seems absolutely possible that the blades they had carried and fought-with so effectively, and for so long, would not be abandoned causally, and certainly not to oblige fashions. Attached Images

3rd January 2025, 06:23 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,991	Keith, thank you for posting this interesting conundrum! As we have discussed, it seems that the Spanish rapier blades of the 16th century remained in favor for virtually generations after the demise of Toledo in the mid 17th century. By about the 1630s, the innovative machine of Solingen was producing blades spuriously marked with markings and names of famed earlier makers of Toledo. These were mostly broadsword blades and others, but included the thin thrusting blades common to the Spanish rapier. The Spanish swordsman was known for the mysterious, geometrical and occult oriented system of fence known as DESTREZA, commonly referred to in fencing references as 'the Spanish fight'. By the end of the 17th century, the beloved cup hilt rapiers of Spain were giving way to a smaller, lighter and faster sword for fencing regarded primarily as a French innovation though it as well known across Europe. The 'French' style of fencing primarily based on the 'smallsword' became dominant through the 18th century. The Spaniards, in the Peninsula largely adopted the French manner and of course the swords, nominally. However, in the colonies in the Americas outside the direct influence of the Spanish courts in the Peninsula, the traditional elements of destreza remained very much in practice. The strong hold to Castilian tradition remained in place in the Americas well through the 18th century into the 19th, In the latter 17th century, the Solingen made blades for various types of swords were shipped in volume to the Americas and certainly well into the 18th, the double edged rapier blades were profoundly in these numbers. In recent years, the wreck of a Spanish nao was found off Panama with many crates of these raoier blades, and had gone down in 1681. These raoier blades had continually been exported into the Americas literally for generations, and were regarded as 'TOLEDO' blades (for the familiar markings) despite typically being of Solingen production. Attached photo of one of these blades. In the Americas, well into the 1800s, officers and those of high station used the now familiar small sword, however rather than the typical trefoil blade used in most European versions, Spaniards preferred the traditional TOLEDO blade. This is well noted in "Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821 (Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain , 1972). where three of these swords, stated origin MEXICO clearly with small sword hilts and TOLEDO blades. These date end of 18th century. While these examples are from the colonies (i.e. Mexico) and likely mounted with blades long already in these regions, possibly either stored or long in circulation, they do in degree reflect the propensity for Spaniards preferring their traditional rapier blades. In my own experience, I must agree to not having seen examples of any Iberian smallswords or court swords which were mounted with the type blades (trefoil or colichemarde) characteristically on the European (or American ) versions. Obviously there will likely be exceptions, however I agree that 'typically' the earlier form of Spanish rapier blade prevailed on Spanish swords, as well it seems even on some English swords. Attached Images

3rd January 2025, 02:57 PM	#3
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 565	Weight One thing is for certain, and that is the balance/weight of the rapier blade in a smallsword hilt: it is much further forward compared to a trefoil blade. This will certainly influence the style of fighting; the rapier blade will demand a great degree of destreza compared to the modern smallsword techniques. I would imagine this alone would influence to repurposing of the rapier blade. I will pull down some swords from the wall and measure them to include in my next post.

3rd January 2025, 10:36 PM	#5
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 565	length and balance Well… so much for my theory! I compared the Portuguese, rapier bladed, smallsword with a typical silver-hilted French hollow blade smallsword and surprise, surprise: both have 32" blades and both have a balance point at 4" from the shell; identical! Admittedly, 32" is generally the maximum length for a small-sword, although colichemardes tend to be at least that, and often a little longer. If you look carefully, you will see that the tang of the rapier blade has been reduced at the ricasso as well as being shortened at the foible, producing this balanced weight. All together, I would imagine there is little to choose between the two as far as technique is concerned which would have been very satisfactory back then with all those rapier blades to choose from. ps Note the King's Head punzone on the ricasso. Attached Images

4th January 2025, 04:12 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,991	Im not sure your theory is deflated Keith, and I cannot speak with any authority on the trefoil smallsword blades, Ive never handled one. What I know is this is by far well balanced and light, certainly well suited for destreza in which your arm is extended directly in line with the shoulder. This is the prime guard for destreza, in fact the only guard position. As you noted earlier, and I was remiss in not noting, if Fernando was here he could truly set these matters straight as his knowledge on Iberian rapiers was beyond reproach. He is truly missed.