Ottoman ? Kindjal/qama with unusual scabbard

francantolin · 23rd January 2022, 04:59 PM

Hello dear members,

I wanted to show you this kindjal/qama dagger,

the dagger must be 19th century with nice horn hilt and some gold koftgari remains

but the scabbard is strange:

Not related at all ( I find) with the dagger but it suits perfectly with the dagger.

really nice made, wood with brass wires and silver nails
and on the other side add of corals and mother of pearls.
make me think of 19th century harem shoes or decorated chests

-Maybe later made ??

- Was the scabbard made in Turkey or north Africa ( Algeria ?)
( mother of pearl and the shape of the striped corals reminds me ottoman empire...)

- Can both dagger and scabbard come from Turkey ??

It can't be a ''usable'' scabbard for the real use:
no clip for a belt on it and it will be brittle with his wooden structure and mother of pearl/ coral set...

maybe the ''home''/parade fancy scabbard ?...

I'll post pictures of the blade,
interesting too, maybe a pattern or etched fullers...

Please tell me what do you think of it .

Kind regards

francantolin · 25th January 2022, 04:56 PM

hello again

I found this one on internet,
exactly the same work but for a smaller blade , and just no mother of pearl...
sold as an ottoman dagger and said to be 19th century...

With ''my'' qama/kindjal , the dagger and hilt can/will be persian more than turkish

Interested Party · 25th January 2022, 05:49 PM

I would love to see some better pictures of the OP blade.

francatolin do you think that these are the original handle slabs? I have always wondered with kindjals what the original tolerances were for "working/daily driver" blades and how much horn changes its shape over time.

francantolin · 26th January 2022, 08:49 AM

Yes for the genuine old slab- horn grips I guess,

here a picture of the side
sure I cleaned it + sand 000 grain then oiled it with amand oil
( like a pedicure

francantolin · 26th January 2022, 08:54 AM

some pictures of the blade,

fullers were etched I think ,
( but the rusty side of the blade can look like a pattern too and all can be folded steel ??)

we can see remains of old damascening on the blade ( persian work ??)

Gonzoadler · 26th January 2022, 12:39 PM

Hello,

I think your Kindjal is a mixture of parts which are made in different regions.
The blade is a type which is typical for Dagestan. Characteristical is the fuller which is not in the blade's center. Most of these blades were made in Dagestan, but of course they were also copied in other regions like Georgia. Without a makers mark it is difficult to state that the blade was definitely made in Dagestan. Many of them were exported from Dagestan and mounted in other regions in the local taste.
The handle doesn't look homogeneous to me. The rivets are far too big for the horn grips. You can often find similar rivets on steel mounted, Koftgari decorated Kindjals, many were made for example in Georgia. The grips itself have the right size for the blade, but they are of a bit crude qualitity. So, the grips and the rivets could be a later replacement, because both does not really look like belonging to the blade.
The scabbard is simply a later addition, you can see that because the transition between scabbard and handle is not very proper. It could been made in Syria, because we know many iron mounted daggers with silver work from there. Of course silver inlay is much more rare than Koftgari and the use of corals is also not so common there, but the general style matches. Also we know similar inlaid nacre from some originally Syrian regions like the Golan Heights. The handle nacre inlays of Druze daggers are nearly identical. Some pictures of Syrian daggers are added.

So I think your Kindjal was originally made in the Caucasus and over the time handle and/or rivets were replaced there and the scabbard was lost. In that condition the dagger went to Syria or an adjacent region and got it's scabbard. The scabbard is not very functional but very decorative, so I would say that this dagger was sold on a souk/bazar as a decorative item. That would also explain some qualitative weaknesses.
As a summary of my opinion, your dagger is an interesting mix of antique parts from different regions.

Regards
Robin

23rd January 2022, 04:59 PM	#1
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 905	Ottoman ? Kindjal/qama with unusual scabbard Hello dear members, I wanted to show you this kindjal/qama dagger, the dagger must be 19th century with nice horn hilt and some gold koftgari remains but the scabbard is strange: Not related at all ( I find) with the dagger but it suits perfectly with the dagger. really nice made, wood with brass wires and silver nails and on the other side add of corals and mother of pearls. make me think of 19th century harem shoes or decorated chests -Maybe later made ?? - Was the scabbard made in Turkey or north Africa ( Algeria ?) ( mother of pearl and the shape of the striped corals reminds me ottoman empire...) - Can both dagger and scabbard come from Turkey ?? It can't be a ''usable'' scabbard for the real use: no clip for a belt on it and it will be brittle with his wooden structure and mother of pearl/ coral set... maybe the ''home''/parade fancy scabbard ?... I'll post pictures of the blade, interesting too, maybe a pattern or etched fullers... Please tell me what do you think of it . Kind regards Attached Images

25th January 2022, 04:56 PM	#2
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 905	hello again I found this one on internet, exactly the same work but for a smaller blade , and just no mother of pearl... sold as an ottoman dagger and said to be 19th century... With ''my'' qama/kindjal , the dagger and hilt can/will be persian more than turkish Attached Images

26th January 2022, 08:49 AM	#4
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 905	Yes for the genuine old slab- horn grips I guess, here a picture of the side sure I cleaned it + sand 000 grain then oiled it with amand oil ( like a pedicure Attached Images

26th January 2022, 08:54 AM	#5
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 905	some pictures of the blade, fullers were etched I think , ( but the rusty side of the blade can look like a pattern too and all can be folded steel ??) we can see remains of old damascening on the blade ( persian work ??) Attached Images

26th January 2022, 12:39 PM	#6
Gonzoadler Member Join Date: Jun 2020 Location: Germany Posts: 255	Hello, I think your Kindjal is a mixture of parts which are made in different regions. The blade is a type which is typical for Dagestan. Characteristical is the fuller which is not in the blade's center. Most of these blades were made in Dagestan, but of course they were also copied in other regions like Georgia. Without a makers mark it is difficult to state that the blade was definitely made in Dagestan. Many of them were exported from Dagestan and mounted in other regions in the local taste. The handle doesn't look homogeneous to me. The rivets are far too big for the horn grips. You can often find similar rivets on steel mounted, Koftgari decorated Kindjals, many were made for example in Georgia. The grips itself have the right size for the blade, but they are of a bit crude qualitity. So, the grips and the rivets could be a later replacement, because both does not really look like belonging to the blade. The scabbard is simply a later addition, you can see that because the transition between scabbard and handle is not very proper. It could been made in Syria, because we know many iron mounted daggers with silver work from there. Of course silver inlay is much more rare than Koftgari and the use of corals is also not so common there, but the general style matches. Also we know similar inlaid nacre from some originally Syrian regions like the Golan Heights. The handle nacre inlays of Druze daggers are nearly identical. Some pictures of Syrian daggers are added. So I think your Kindjal was originally made in the Caucasus and over the time handle and/or rivets were replaced there and the scabbard was lost. In that condition the dagger went to Syria or an adjacent region and got it's scabbard. The scabbard is not very functional but very decorative, so I would say that this dagger was sold on a souk/bazar as a decorative item. That would also explain some qualitative weaknesses. As a summary of my opinion, your dagger is an interesting mix of antique parts from different regions. Regards Robin Attached Images

25th January 2022, 05:49 PM	#3
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 491	I would love to see some better pictures of the OP blade. francatolin do you think that these are the original handle slabs? I have always wondered with kindjals what the original tolerances were for "working/daily driver" blades and how much horn changes its shape over time.