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#1 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Port Richey, Florida
Posts: 20
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Hi, I'm new here. I'm only 16 but I've been fascinated by weapons ever since I was a little kid, so far my collection ammounts to a Mosin Nagant 91/30 Soviet Russian rifle made in 1939, complete with bayonet (picked it up for 99 bucks, thier so cheap and plentiful everyone should own one) and on the less glorious side a 20 dollar wall hanger katana that didnt even try to immitate same. It's about as sharp as a butter knife.
I'm looking to change that, hehe. I used to never care bout the kris, but after maybe a day of lurking around this place checking old topics it and the kampilan has really grown on me. I'm wondering how long could a kris get? And how is it used, some of them are really thin and wavy which makes me think of a stabber. The others are thick and straight which makes me think chopper. So whats the max length of a kris and how is it used? Also whats the difference between a kris and keris? |
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#2 | |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,167
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there are the broad moro style (sundang) ones that were used for draw cuts like a katana, and could also be used for thrusts; the US Marines recorded instances where a moro actually cut a marine in two with one back in the early 20thC insurrection - it's why the army dropped their 'economic' .38 cal. pistols in favor of the .45. the moro's are muslim's and are very bellicose and independant (the bean counters issued the US with .38's again before Iraq, and again they're finding it inadequate against muslim insurectionists & alot use old .45s when they are allowed - those who forget history are forced to relive it) the lighter indonesian ones are normally thought of as thrusting weapons, tho they have assumed more magical powers and thus can accomplish by magic what they are no longer desiring to accomplish by brute force. the long straight ones are sometimes thought of as 'executioner' kris, as they are frequently carried by the high ranking rulers and can be used to dispense justice with a quick downward thrust behind the collarbone and down into the heart of the kneeling criminal. they all of course nowadays are not used in battle as weapons, but are artistic and magical living history. as far as i know, keris, kris, kreese, etc. are phonetic spellings of the same basic indonesian / moro item, kris is not used alot on ebay as if it is used in a search filter it tends to bring up a zillion kris kristopherson cd's, etc. that's just for starters, i'm just a beginner & there are many man-centuries of experienced keris affecionados here, there are so many variations in the grips, blades, scabbards, metallurgy, and history that it is an endlessly fascinating field of collection to get into. i'm sure the others here who are more knowledgeable will add to your enthusiasm. after all, there are also rencong, badek, parangs, pedangs, gunongs, punals, talibons, klewangs, siwar, barong, kampilan and a zillion more in additon to keris, all with their own variations. like japanese weapons, they all have their own descriptive language for the variations, and this can be picked up with study and experience, you will soon be thinking in terms of mendak, pamor, etc. as you progress and add to you collection. (see this Linky ) the other links on that page will bring up a host of wonders. they don't go much into kujangs tho, like this one of mine, another fascinating style: ![]() oh, by the way welcome aboard. you have been assimilated. Last edited by kronckew; 2nd July 2006 at 11:49 AM. |
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#3 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,209
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Steven,
Welcome to the forum. Rule one: we never talk about money. Though I can understand your enthousiasm, we discuss weapons and not values. Take a day off and search the forum with the words keris and kris. Then you will learn a lot. When you have some time to spare search for the weapons kronckew named. You are young and in the beginning of collecting. You will make mistakes, like we all did and sometimes still do. If those mistakes are not too expensive, it is a learning moment. Don't ask questions on pending auctions, but a PM to a knowledgeable member can give you the answers you might need. Good luck with hunting!! |
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#4 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Port Richey, Florida
Posts: 20
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Thank you both, but my original question stands, whats the maximum size of a kris?
Btw, I realise prices arent allowed, but am I allowed to ask where I can find items? I'm really interested in finding a nice huge kampilan but I'd prefer not to use ebay unless theres a buy now option. The kampilan has really grown on me. And to the second poster, I dont see how you can chop a man in half with a kris! I mean do you mean like literally chopped in half across the torso!? |
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#5 | |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posts: 1,730
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http://home.earthlink.net/~federicomalibago/index.html as for the max size, i have one that has a 28" blade (almost 2 inches wide), and as far as length, i haven't seen a longer one than that. with the size of this and the weight, yes you can cleave a man in half. as for where you can buy a kampilan, a forum member by the name of artzi carries them on his website from time to time. http://www.oriental-arms.com/ |
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#6 | |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,249
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Welcome Steven!
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I'd recommend posting "wanted ads" at the swap forum - some members occasionally part from decent pieces when upgrading their private collections and I've seen fair or even quite cheap prices more often than inflated prices. However, always keep in mind the collectors prime motto "caveat emptor" and ask one or more members via PM before finalizing any transaction. Regards, Kai |
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#7 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 940
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Hey Steven, welcome to the forum.
So what what you are saying then is that size does matter, eh? ![]() As Kronckew explained, a distinction must be made between Indonesian keris which are generally dagger length and the beefer, sword length Moro kris. The spellings are actually interchangable, but generally on this forun we have adopted "keris" for the Indo blade and "kris" for the Moro sword (sometimes called a sundang or a kalis as well) to avoid confusion. Moro kris tend to be extremely combat ready swords and would be my personal choice for a blade in a sword fight. The Indo keris tend to be more complex and variant in form, often with complex pamor patterns in the iron which hold various talismanic and protective significance. For me personally, as an artform in metal they are unsurpassed. To answer your question, you will find the sword lenght Moro kris between the sizes of about 18" (mostly the older ones) up to about 28". This is just blade lenght, not hilt included. I would not be surprised if you found some slightly longer, but i would say the average ones are in the low to mid 20s range. They tend to be VERY edge sharp and while actually cleaving a man in two might be a rarity they were capable of inflicting deep and mortal damage, often cutting from the collar bone down deep into the middle of the chest. The Indo keris is a stabbing weapon, so this type of damage is not possible with those blades. Over the centuries the Indo keris moved away from being a physical weapon and took a place in Indonesian culture as an object of status, power, family lineage and spiritual and magickal practice. Hope that helps. As Henk suggests, use the search function. You will also find more info searching the old forums. happy hunting. ![]() |
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#8 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,167
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This current thread here has more interesting info on moro kris, http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=moro
including the interesting internet version of 'swish of the kris' on the moro insurrection of the early 1900's http://www.bakbakan.com/swishkb.html it was in there that i read the bit about the report of the marine being cut in two. (i think that one was a barong tho) i am certainly aware of them (kris, barong, etc.) having been capable of cutting from the shoulder down thru deep in the chest of a victim. the filipino's made some of the best steel weapons outside of europe in a time when they were being phased out in europe and thus were probably even better. it is interesting to note the variations in spelling of the different terms, again probably because of phonetic spelling. (campilane = kampilan, etc.) |
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#9 | ||
Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,249
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Regards, Kai |
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#10 | |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 221
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There is a good article in a old magazine "The Gun Report vol.37,#1", that records the history of the switch during and after the Philippine American War 1902 when the US continued the fight in the Moro territories. Soldiers wanted the .45 revolvers over the issued .38 because they saw Moros fighting after multiple shots and cutting down their opponent. Development of the .45 automatic took about a decade with the 1911 issue while still fighting the Moro. The military even admit it was the battles with the Moro that cause the switch on one of their promotional posters. |
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#11 | |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,249
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Hello Mabagani,
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Regards, Kai |
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#12 | |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 221
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#13 | |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 221
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The myth here was the quote "brought to an end years of bitter struggle against the Moro", battles continued censored until the military left in 1936. Last edited by MABAGANI; 9th July 2006 at 03:31 PM. |
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#14 | ||
Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Kansas City, MO USA
Posts: 312
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#15 | |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posts: 1,730
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... a continuation of what BSMStar was saying (more of a full circle):
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a recent excerpt from the latest edition of American Rifleman magazine, NRA's 'Official Journal' (July 2006). the article was written by Wiley Clapp, field editor. Back To the Future? U.S. Military .45s, pp.36-37 "We have come to understand the flawed logic of selecting a high-capacity 9mm pistol, simply because it holds lots of shots. Even the .40 S&W compromise, which gives us fewer shots and bigger bullets than the 9mm, has not always worked well as it should. The best solution to the problem would seem to be the one adopted in 1911 - a .45 ACP handgun. Any student of firearm history is aware of the fact that we have been through this before and for exactly the same reasons. We once change from a single-action .45 Colt revolver of adequate power to a .38 Long Colt revolver of inadequate power, just because the latter was lighter, more modern double-action design. When the .38 Long Colt faced a determined enemy in the Philippines, it didn't performed well, and we ended up rushing the older .45 Colt guns out of arsenal storage and into the hands of the troops. Then, a program of development was initiated that resulted in the best service pistol and service pistol cartridge in the history of arms. The M1911 Colt in .45 ACP served us well in two world wars, Korea, Vietnam and other conflicts throughout the troubled 20th century." |
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#16 | |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,167
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(i am prejudiced because the few times i went armed for real i used a .45 govt. model, and got my expert pistol medal with one...) |
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#17 | |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Kansas City, MO USA
Posts: 312
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![]() I would love to debate the differences but I do not wish to hijack this thread. |
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#18 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,167
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you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. some dead horses like beating also. the thread has been hijacked already by picking up and disagreeing with what was meant to be a marginal aside on my original discussion of the 'terminal ballistics' of moro edged weapons against US troops. i offer the following to try to terminate this discussion as i do not want anyone left with incomplete facts.
those who have been a gun nut or been involved in hand loading & Terminal Ballistics (linky) will see my point. if i'd a said 9mm parabellum cartridge and/or .38 long colt, .38 special, etc. you might have a leg to stand on, but talking about bullet diameter there is no practical difference and they are in the same family, and the effect on a target especially will be very closely the same given the same construction, velocity and bullet weight. the 9mm is classed as a .38 caliber weapon, 9mm is just the european measurement for what is called a .38 in the US (actually .36, but called .38 for reasons not germain) the .002 inch difference in diameter only matters to handloaders, again, some 9mm weapons actually have .357 bores & may be more accurate with .357 hand loads in their 9mm parabellum cases. i won't get into mfg. tolerances, wear, rifling differences and their effects on bore dia. either. the above linky on terminal ballistics has more info than can be adequately covered here for anyone who wants to continue.. so, anyone who is chambering a 9mm parabellum cartridge IS effectively chambering a .38 caliber bullet. Last edited by kronckew; 10th July 2006 at 07:50 AM. |
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#19 | |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 79
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Welcome aboard mate. ![]() There are no 'standards' for the length of a keris/kris. However, aficionados have some agreement as to what constitutes a 'normal' length. which also may be different for different regions, e.g. for the indo keris: the difference between what is considered 'normal' length in Java and that in Bali. Rather than having one specific value of length, 'normal' tends to be a range, e.g. for the Javanese keris it is about 33-38 cm. Kerises can be found as small as only a few centimetres in length, but these tend to be talismanic in nature. In the other extreme, kerises/krises can be quite MASSIVE! I have a keris which is approximately 1 metre in length and a kris which is about 1.3 metres. The terms keris/kris/kriss/creese etc. are interchangeable, depending upon whom and what country you are dealing with. Should you become interested interested in the Kujang.... that is a slightly different area. The Kujang didn't really develop until 1357..... their aficianados are a small bunch.. but very dedicated. Anyway... there's a lot of info out there.. as well as in this forum. Decide what's best for you and ... God speed ! ![]() Cheers. |
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#20 |
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,879
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Hi Steven,
I'd like to welcome you to the forum as well, and wanted to note that though I'm more than undisclosed decades older, I still have my trusty Moisin-Nagant sitting in the corner from many years ago...with the 'screwdriver' bayonet ![]() I started collecting with worn old bayonets from war surplus stores that were usually in dusty barrels. Just remember, its about learning and not hesitating to ask questions, just like what you're doing. We steer away from monetary values because of not only legal problems, but they have little to do with the historic value or identification of the weapon. As students of edged weapons and thier history, we typically consider such base focus irrelevant. As you can see, the guys here are loaded with knowledge, and especially on the very esoteric keris, which is truly a fascinating weapon form. Regardless of how many years any of us has been at this, we are all still learning, and doing it together, so again, welcome!!!! ![]() All the best, Jim |
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#21 | |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 940
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![]() ![]() I am also curious where you came up with the date of 1357 for the Kujang. Not to doubt you, It's not an impossible date, but it seems somewhat arbitrary to me. Could you cite your sources there. ![]() |
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#22 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Orlando
Posts: 104
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nechesh
Surely you have hard of the "Processional Kerises" of Java that were used like the "City Swords" in Europe. They were also carried in a place of honor on the Sultan's boat while he was on board. These are in the neighborhood of 5 feet in total length. I don't have any pictures on hand to stick in here so you'll just have to take my word that I have seen a few. I know that one was in the Museum in Jakarta in the mid 70's. |
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#23 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 940
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Actually does sound familiar now that you mention it Mick. I was originally under the impression that Pangeran was talking about a Moro kris, but now that i go back and take a look i do see that he states the 1.3 metre blade is a keris, so if he is using our "forum code" i guess he is talking about and Indo piece. Understand i wasn't doubting him. I just want to see it.
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#24 | |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 79
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#25 | |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 79
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![]() Unfortunately, I have developed an aversion to that part of technology which involves taking pictures... hence I don't even own a camera. As regards the Kujang: 1357 was when the 'Bubat Massacre' occurred and is very significant to the Sunda people, just as the 'Bud Daha Massacre' is to the Taosug. So, it's not arbitrary in any sense of the word. Quite the contrary, from this point on there existed a deep-seated hatred of the 'wong wetan' (Javanese). Even today, it still exists... if only as an under-current. Unfortunately, I can't cite my sources ( says he, tapping his nose with a wink ![]() Cheers. |
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