Sudanese spearheads with handles & arrow heads???

katana · 16th May 2006, 05:18 PM

Received these today, I am assuming that these are Sudanese.
Three socketted spearheads fixed to handles. Two handles leather covered,the third,possibly Monitor lizard. Does this type of weapon have a name? Obviously it was used as a stabbing blade, where these improvised for 'close quarter' fighting?
Also with these pieces I have two arrow heads ? made in the same style with a socket fitting, surely too small for spears? Any suggestions gratefully received......

fearn · 16th May 2006, 06:23 PM

Hi Katana,

Interesting items! To figure out whether those points are arrow heads or dart/javelin heads, it would be useful to know a) their lengths, and b) the inside diameter of the sockets.

Just as a note, I've been reading some interesting books from the archeological recreaters--the guys who are into making stone weapons. They've learned quite a lot about throwing darts, javelins, spears, etc. with spear throwers, batons de commandment, cords, and what have you. I can expand on this in another thread if desired, but the basic point is that throwing spears, especially those thrown with a spear thrower, are better thought of as double-length arrows rather than as lances. Often, spears designed primarily as missiles can have diameters <1 in (1-3 cm).

The basic point is that there's a size overlap between arrows and thrown spears, to the extent that some American archeologists have stopped talking about "large arrowheads" and "small spearheads" and started talking about "dart points," basically because the smallest, slenderest throwing spears are the same size as the largest, heaviest arrows, and only the details of the shaft can be used to distinguish them (presence/absence of features such as feathers, nocks, etc).

My 0.02 cents,

F

Tim Simmons · 16th May 2006, 07:08 PM

I am not sure these items with the handles are actual weapons. Take another look at the thread started by Katius and the spear thread from Fernando. These in my opinion are all linked to Southern Sudan and North East Congo. No doubt they could be used as weapons. I feel they are more dance or society objects. I like them, lots.

katana · 16th May 2006, 08:44 PM

Hi Fearn,
you're right I should have included dimensions. Your comments are very informative. The dimensions of the 'arrow' heads are;

socket dia. 1. 11mm 2. 13mm
length 1. 15mm 2. 16mm
blade width 1. 19mm 2. 23mm
(widest)

The measurements suggest a shaft of arrow proportions. They (the heads) are very light, and probably would not give the weight needed to give a small spear the correct trajectory, when thrown. (Unless the shaft was weighted at the spearhead end.) I'm begining to lean towards these being arrow heads. However, the idea of a spear thrower would make sense, this would provide enough energy (as would a bow) to propel a 'light headed' projectile accurately. Spear throwers were common in the America's, Australia etc and are very ancient. Is there any evidence of their useage in Africa?

Tim, I think your thoughts about the spears are probably correct. Have you had the chance to read my other thread about a Sudanese dagger set? You know I always value your comments and the Sudan is one of your forte's

fearn · 17th May 2006, 07:35 PM

Hi Katana,

Thanks for the measurements. I think you're probably right about the small points being arrowheads. To my (admittedly imperfect) knowledge, there aren't any atlatl/spearthrowers from Africa.

F

katana · 18th May 2006, 11:54 AM

I find it strange that atlatl / spear throwers were not commonly used in Africa, they were found in many cultures and time periods. In fact according to archaeological evidence, the atlatl first made its appearance between 25 000 and 40 000 years ago in the region that today encompasses Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia.
It allowed a 6 foot spear (or more accurately a dart) to be propelled at 80 mph with great accuracy ( to around 40m )and reach distances of 200m. The world record for the javelin is under 100m.
An effective, simple weapon, in Africa's long past that lost favour?

It really is a puzzle.
The mental picture of hoards of Zulu using these weapons against the British, suggests that perhaps they would have gained more victories than they actually did.

16th May 2006, 05:18 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Sudanese spearheads with handles & arrow heads??? Received these today, I am assuming that these are Sudanese. Three socketted spearheads fixed to handles. Two handles leather covered,the third,possibly Monitor lizard. Does this type of weapon have a name? Obviously it was used as a stabbing blade, where these improvised for 'close quarter' fighting? Also with these pieces I have two arrow heads ? made in the same style with a socket fitting, surely too small for spears? Any suggestions gratefully received...... Attached Images

16th May 2006, 06:23 PM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Katana, Interesting items! To figure out whether those points are arrow heads or dart/javelin heads, it would be useful to know a) their lengths, and b) the inside diameter of the sockets. Just as a note, I've been reading some interesting books from the archeological recreaters--the guys who are into making stone weapons. They've learned quite a lot about throwing darts, javelins, spears, etc. with spear throwers, batons de commandment, cords, and what have you. I can expand on this in another thread if desired, but the basic point is that throwing spears, especially those thrown with a spear thrower, are better thought of as double-length arrows rather than as lances. Often, spears designed primarily as missiles can have diameters <1 in (1-3 cm). The basic point is that there's a size overlap between arrows and thrown spears, to the extent that some American archeologists have stopped talking about "large arrowheads" and "small spearheads" and started talking about "dart points," basically because the smallest, slenderest throwing spears are the same size as the largest, heaviest arrows, and only the details of the shaft can be used to distinguish them (presence/absence of features such as feathers, nocks, etc). My 0.02 cents, F

16th May 2006, 07:08 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	I am not sure these items with the handles are actual weapons. Take another look at the thread started by Katius and the spear thread from Fernando. These in my opinion are all linked to Southern Sudan and North East Congo. No doubt they could be used as weapons. I feel they are more dance or society objects. I like them, lots.

16th May 2006, 08:44 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Fearn, you're right I should have included dimensions. Your comments are very informative. The dimensions of the 'arrow' heads are; socket dia. 1. 11mm 2. 13mm length 1. 15mm 2. 16mm blade width 1. 19mm 2. 23mm (widest) The measurements suggest a shaft of arrow proportions. They (the heads) are very light, and probably would not give the weight needed to give a small spear the correct trajectory, when thrown. (Unless the shaft was weighted at the spearhead end.) I'm begining to lean towards these being arrow heads. However, the idea of a spear thrower would make sense, this would provide enough energy (as would a bow) to propel a 'light headed' projectile accurately. Spear throwers were common in the America's, Australia etc and are very ancient. Is there any evidence of their useage in Africa? Tim, I think your thoughts about the spears are probably correct. Have you had the chance to read my other thread about a Sudanese dagger set? You know I always value your comments and the Sudan is one of your forte's

17th May 2006, 07:35 PM	#5
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Katana, Thanks for the measurements. I think you're probably right about the small points being arrowheads. To my (admittedly imperfect) knowledge, there aren't any atlatl/spearthrowers from Africa. F

18th May 2006, 11:54 AM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I find it strange that atlatl / spear throwers were not commonly used in Africa, they were found in many cultures and time periods. In fact according to archaeological evidence, the atlatl first made its appearance between 25 000 and 40 000 years ago in the region that today encompasses Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia. It allowed a 6 foot spear (or more accurately a dart) to be propelled at 80 mph with great accuracy ( to around 40m )and reach distances of 200m. The world record for the javelin is under 100m. An effective, simple weapon, in Africa's long past that lost favour? It really is a puzzle. The mental picture of hoards of Zulu using these weapons against the British, suggests that perhaps they would have gained more victories than they actually did.