Two Tulwars and marking identification etc.

Mikune · 16th March 2017, 05:11 PM

Hi, I recently got these two Tulwars as a start to my antique swords and weapons collection as before I only collected deactivated firearms and bayonets. I think they're real by the looks and feel of them and they seem actually balanced and everything but I was interested to ask incase anyone recognized the markings on the blades or had anything to say about them from their own knowledge. The swords are supposedly from an armoury in Bikaner, Rajasthan.

Many apologies if I get the images wrong, I couldn't get the uploader to work at all nor is the software available anymore to rezise them either. So not exactly sure what I can do other than attach links

Swords:

ALEX · 17th March 2017, 01:39 PM

The tulwars are real and genuine antiques. The markings are very crude attempts to resemble the cartouche and eye-lash mark, and as such do not mean anything other than someone tried to add "value" to the blade, i.e. sell it for more rupies.

Jim McDougall · 17th March 2017, 04:58 PM

As Alex has well noted, these appear quite genuine, although tulwars seem to multiply in and around Rajasthan, as the supply seems boundless. If these had come from the Bikaner armoury they would have had stippled (dotted) script markings at the upper part of the blade. Naturally not every weapon had to have had these as there must have been tremendous volume of stores there.

With these markings, I agree that the one with crude arcs and dentated lines probably was attempting to imitate the so called 'sickle' marks, as these seem to have been prolific on examples of the paluoar 's of Afghan regions to the north.

Also the 'arrow' mark was used by one of the Rajput clans, but I need to find it in my notes. I believe the symbol was illustrated in Tod's book on Rajasthan.

The other marking which seems geometric resembles markings used by the Kalash people of Chitral, an ethnic group formerly Kafirs of Luristan who are animist and use these kinds of symbols.

It is difficult to say exactly what situation these tulwars came from, but often these crude imitation markings were used to imply quality (value as Alex has noted) or in more pragmatic circumstances they were applied to imbue certain symbolism of perhaps talismanic nature.

Interesting examples and thank you for sharing them here, and welcome to our forums!

Mikune · 17th March 2017, 05:52 PM

Thank you very much for the replies and welcome!

I'm glad to hear they appear genuine to people with more experience than myself. Also very interesting and grateful to find out about the markings! I probably should get a book on Tulwar or Indian weapons. If the arrow is a Rajput clan symbol could it possibly be evidence that that one at least is from Rajasthan? There are also a lot of chips in one of them that definitely look like its been struck by another sword (to me at least) multiple times, not sure if anyone can see that on these pictures. They have definitely been sharpened before at some point. Could that mean it was used in some form of "well known" conflict?

Many thanks for all the help!

Mike

Jim McDougall · 17th March 2017, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikune

Thank you very much for the replies and welcome!

I'm glad to hear they appear genuine to people with more experience than myself. Also very interesting and grateful to find out about the markings! I probably should get a book on Tulwar or Indian weapons. If the arrow is a Rajput clan symbol could it possibly be evidence that that one at least is from Rajasthan? There are also a lot of chips in one of them that definitely look like its been struck by another sword (to me at least) multiple times, not sure if anyone can see that on these pictures. Could that mean it was used in some form of "well known" conflict?

Many thanks for all the help!

Mike

Hi Mike,
The knowledge base here on these and all manner of arms is beyond phenomenal, and having participants like you share their acquisitions generate the great discussions helping us all learn together.
There will be a new book about Indian arms coming out soon, by Robert Elgood, and will I understand have a great deal on tulwars.

A good book to begin study on these is "Indian Arms & Armour" by G.N.Pant, Lahore, 1980. While there are numerous points of contention, it gives a good overview to get perspective. Also, "The Indian Sword" by Rawson. These are the basics, and using the search function here you can pretty much fill in the blanks reading threads archived for many years.

It is very difficult to align certain weapons with notable battles or events without exacted provenance, and quite frankly chips or damage to a weapon seldom signifies cause from combat. Often the damage is from far less colorful use or misuse, but I like your way of thinking. The weapons as you see, do tell their stories by our observing the many clues they share.

Mikune · 17th March 2017, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Mike,
The knowledge base here on these and all manner of arms is beyond phenomenal, and having participants like you share their acquisitions generate the great discussions helping us all learn together.
There will be a new book about Indian arms coming out soon, by Robert Elgood, and will I understand have a great deal on tulwars.

A good book to begin study on these is "Indian Arms & Armour" by G.N.Pant, Lahore, 1980. While there are numerous points of contention, it gives a good overview to get perspective. Also, "The Indian Sword" by Rawson. These are the basics, and using the search function here you can pretty much fill in the blanks reading threads archived for many years.

It is very difficult to align certain weapons with notable battles or events without exacted provenance, and quite frankly chips or damage to a weapon seldom signifies cause from combat. Often the damage is from far less colorful use or misuse, but I like your way of thinking. The weapons as you see, do tell their stories by our observing the many clues they share.

I will definitely look into those today, thank you for the suggestions. Also that is a thing I love about historical weapons and items, they have a long story that you can learn little parts of by observing them

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Both swords appear not only genuine but also bear clear marks of being actually used on the battlefield.

However, I am of the oppinion that the engravings were added as a form of "trench art" as they are too crude to be considered to increase the market value of the swords.

Moreover, there might be some talismanic value attached to them.

I was hoping that they might be from combat too, the cuts in the blade are shaped like a blade. It would be really interesting if that's what they are.

Thanks for the replies everyone

Does anyone have any idea what date these could be from? I was estimating around 1800 or somewhere around there. Sorry for so many questions but It's very interesting to hear what experienced people have to say about these!

mariusgmioc · 17th March 2017, 06:19 PM

Both swords appear not only genuine but also bear clear marks of being actually used on the battlefield.

However, I am of the oppinion that the engravings were added as a form of "trench art" as they are too crude to be considered to increase the market value of the swords.

Moreover, there might be some talismanic value attached to them (like Jim suggested).

16th March 2017, 05:11 PM	#1
Mikune Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 3	Two Tulwars and marking identification etc. Hi, I recently got these two Tulwars as a start to my antique swords and weapons collection as before I only collected deactivated firearms and bayonets. I think they're real by the looks and feel of them and they seem actually balanced and everything but I was interested to ask incase anyone recognized the markings on the blades or had anything to say about them from their own knowledge. The swords are supposedly from an armoury in Bikaner, Rajasthan. Many apologies if I get the images wrong, I couldn't get the uploader to work at all nor is the software available anymore to rezise them either. So not exactly sure what I can do other than attach links Swords: Attached Images Last edited by Robert; 17th March 2017 at 01:30 AM. Reason: Please downlosd photos directly to the thread as per forum rules. Image resizer for windows is available for free download online. Robert

17th March 2017, 05:52 PM	#4
Mikune Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 3	Thank you very much for the replies and welcome! I'm glad to hear they appear genuine to people with more experience than myself. Also very interesting and grateful to find out about the markings! I probably should get a book on Tulwar or Indian weapons. If the arrow is a Rajput clan symbol could it possibly be evidence that that one at least is from Rajasthan? There are also a lot of chips in one of them that definitely look like its been struck by another sword (to me at least) multiple times, not sure if anyone can see that on these pictures. They have definitely been sharpened before at some point. Could that mean it was used in some form of "well known" conflict? Many thanks for all the help! Mike Last edited by Mikune; 17th March 2017 at 06:19 PM.

17th March 2017, 01:39 PM	#2
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	The tulwars are real and genuine antiques. The markings are very crude attempts to resemble the cartouche and eye-lash mark, and as such do not mean anything other than someone tried to add "value" to the blade, i.e. sell it for more rupies.

17th March 2017, 04:58 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	As Alex has well noted, these appear quite genuine, although tulwars seem to multiply in and around Rajasthan, as the supply seems boundless. If these had come from the Bikaner armoury they would have had stippled (dotted) script markings at the upper part of the blade. Naturally not every weapon had to have had these as there must have been tremendous volume of stores there. With these markings, I agree that the one with crude arcs and dentated lines probably was attempting to imitate the so called 'sickle' marks, as these seem to have been prolific on examples of the paluoar 's of Afghan regions to the north. Also the 'arrow' mark was used by one of the Rajput clans, but I need to find it in my notes. I believe the symbol was illustrated in Tod's book on Rajasthan. The other marking which seems geometric resembles markings used by the Kalash people of Chitral, an ethnic group formerly Kafirs of Luristan who are animist and use these kinds of symbols. It is difficult to say exactly what situation these tulwars came from, but often these crude imitation markings were used to imply quality (value as Alex has noted) or in more pragmatic circumstances they were applied to imbue certain symbolism of perhaps talismanic nature. Interesting examples and thank you for sharing them here, and welcome to our forums!

17th March 2017, 06:19 PM	#7
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Both swords appear not only genuine but also bear clear marks of being actually used on the battlefield. However, I am of the oppinion that the engravings were added as a form of "trench art" as they are too crude to be considered to increase the market value of the swords. Moreover, there might be some talismanic value attached to them (like Jim suggested).