Cute but what is it really?

Marcus · 27th October 2016, 04:22 AM

I succumbed to this recent item posted on Oriental Arms. I would question (as does Artzi) if it is from Java. Other suggestions?

Sajen · 27th October 2016, 05:10 AM

Hi Marcus,

what is the handle material?

Regards,
Detlef

Marcus · 27th October 2016, 01:14 PM

Artzi says ivory.

Sajen · 27th October 2016, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus

Artzi says ivory.

I doubt a little bit, would like to see your pictures when you have received it. Special some close ups. I would call this item piso/pisau (knife). Unusual item.

Regards,
Detlef

Marcus · 11th November 2016, 04:19 PM

Trying to identify the features of the character.

Marcus · 11th November 2016, 04:24 PM

Small knife with a carved human figure hilt .
Van Zonneveld Page 108

Marcus · 12th November 2016, 02:34 PM

A Balinese friend who is a tour guide assures me that this is from Bali based on the style of the carving.

A. G. Maisey · 12th November 2016, 09:45 PM

I rather doubt that this is a Balinese knife, the reason being that I have never seen any Balinese knife with a blade shape like this, or a scabbard shape like this,

Is the hilt figure wearing trousers, or at least leg coverings under his sarung?

What does that tell us, if he is?

Another indicator of origin might be in the internal ornamentation of the tumpal motif.

Gustav · 12th November 2016, 11:15 PM

I would say, made for those who travel for pleasure.

It is an absolutely eclectic mix of many very different elements from Sumatra, Madura, Bali. It would look for about 50% more authentic without that big face on sheath.

For sure we all recognize the different elements - the overall Sumatranese sheath shape (with absolutely non-Sumatranese ornamentics), the Madurese motif at the sheath throath, the DongSon (Moon of Pejeng) or typical late Majapahit face with bulging eyes (with moustache, which was en voque only in Bali/Madura), the hilt figure with typical Lotus/Yoni motif at the base.

Sajen · 12th November 2016, 11:39 PM

[QUOTE=Gustav]I would say, made for those who travel for pleasure./QUOTE]

Sorry Gustav, I strongly doubt!

A. G. Maisey · 13th November 2016, 12:14 AM

Gustav, I do agree with your stylistic analysis, but I tend to disagree with your conclusion.

My feeling, and it is a feeling, rather than a defensible opinion, is that we are looking at a dealer's montage,

OR

and this is big "OR", something that has been put together from bits and pieces in Indonesia, by an Indonesian, for use.

Over the years I've seen a lot of married daggers and swords, often with quite good age, but with a mix of component parts, I have seldom bought these things, but the fact remains that parts of weapons travel, and when they get somewhere that somebody wants to use them, they get re-assembled.

I saw a wonderful example of this a few years ago, it had been brought back by a WWII soldier from a little village on the North Coast of Sumatera, it was a keris, and every single part of it came from a different place. There was a story with it, that unusual for me, I was prepared to accept at face value. Very briefly, the soldier was trying to get across Sumatera from Singapore after Singapore fell, he got to this little fishing village, where the village leader gave him food and shelter, he stayed there for a while, and during his stay the village leader's daughter, or wife (unclear which) fell ill, and the soldier was able to cure her. When he left to move on, the village leader gave him the parting gift of this mix & match keris.

The thing is this:- people in Indonesia do not waste anything, and if they get bits and pieces of something from a different area from where they live, they use those things --- blade from here, hilt from there, make the ferrule, repair a scabbard from somewhere else --- and what you finish up with is a mix of parts that simply cannot be put into the context of one location.

Where a kraton has influence over an area, people tend to pretty much follow the dress dictates of that kraton, but the further you get from this sort of influence, the more people go their own way.

On the subject of dealers' montages. During the 1950's, 1960's and 1970's there was a major --- and I mean MAJOR --- English antiques and weapons dealer who had a factory that was devoted to the production of antique weapons from genuine and false antique parts. These were then sold through both the dealer's shopfront, and through auction. There's a lot of stuff out there that gives a very good impression of being genuine, but is not so.

Marcus · 14th November 2016, 02:11 AM

It looks to me like the white stuff is the ivory of the figure, carved down to a collar. The blade is held (firmly) in place with wooden shims.

27th October 2016, 04:22 AM	#1
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	Cute but what is it really? I succumbed to this recent item posted on Oriental Arms. I would question (as does Artzi) if it is from Java. Other suggestions? Attached Images

27th October 2016, 01:14 PM	#3
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	handle Artzi says ivory.

11th November 2016, 04:19 PM	#5
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	Close ups Trying to identify the features of the character. Attached Images

11th November 2016, 04:24 PM	#6
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	Piso ni datu? Small knife with a carved human figure hilt . Van Zonneveld Page 108

12th November 2016, 02:34 PM	#7
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	Bali A Balinese friend who is a tour guide assures me that this is from Bali based on the style of the carving.

27th October 2016, 05:10 AM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,888	Hi Marcus, what is the handle material? Regards, Detlef

12th November 2016, 09:45 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,924	I rather doubt that this is a Balinese knife, the reason being that I have never seen any Balinese knife with a blade shape like this, or a scabbard shape like this, Is the hilt figure wearing trousers, or at least leg coverings under his sarung? What does that tell us, if he is? Another indicator of origin might be in the internal ornamentation of the tumpal motif.

12th November 2016, 11:15 PM	#9
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,253	I would say, made for those who travel for pleasure. It is an absolutely eclectic mix of many very different elements from Sumatra, Madura, Bali. It would look for about 50% more authentic without that big face on sheath. For sure we all recognize the different elements - the overall Sumatranese sheath shape (with absolutely non-Sumatranese ornamentics), the Madurese motif at the sheath throath, the DongSon (Moon of Pejeng) or typical late Majapahit face with bulging eyes (with moustache, which was en voque only in Bali/Madura), the hilt figure with typical Lotus/Yoni motif at the base. Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; 12th November 2016 at 11:29 PM.

12th November 2016, 11:39 PM	#10
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,888	[QUOTE=Gustav]I would say, made for those who travel for pleasure./QUOTE] Sorry Gustav, I strongly doubt!

13th November 2016, 12:14 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,924	Gustav, I do agree with your stylistic analysis, but I tend to disagree with your conclusion. My feeling, and it is a feeling, rather than a defensible opinion, is that we are looking at a dealer's montage, OR and this is big "OR", something that has been put together from bits and pieces in Indonesia, by an Indonesian, for use. Over the years I've seen a lot of married daggers and swords, often with quite good age, but with a mix of component parts, I have seldom bought these things, but the fact remains that parts of weapons travel, and when they get somewhere that somebody wants to use them, they get re-assembled. I saw a wonderful example of this a few years ago, it had been brought back by a WWII soldier from a little village on the North Coast of Sumatera, it was a keris, and every single part of it came from a different place. There was a story with it, that unusual for me, I was prepared to accept at face value. Very briefly, the soldier was trying to get across Sumatera from Singapore after Singapore fell, he got to this little fishing village, where the village leader gave him food and shelter, he stayed there for a while, and during his stay the village leader's daughter, or wife (unclear which) fell ill, and the soldier was able to cure her. When he left to move on, the village leader gave him the parting gift of this mix & match keris. The thing is this:- people in Indonesia do not waste anything, and if they get bits and pieces of something from a different area from where they live, they use those things --- blade from here, hilt from there, make the ferrule, repair a scabbard from somewhere else --- and what you finish up with is a mix of parts that simply cannot be put into the context of one location. Where a kraton has influence over an area, people tend to pretty much follow the dress dictates of that kraton, but the further you get from this sort of influence, the more people go their own way. On the subject of dealers' montages. During the 1950's, 1960's and 1970's there was a major --- and I mean MAJOR --- English antiques and weapons dealer who had a factory that was devoted to the production of antique weapons from genuine and false antique parts. These were then sold through both the dealer's shopfront, and through auction. There's a lot of stuff out there that gives a very good impression of being genuine, but is not so.

14th November 2016, 02:11 AM	#12
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	White stuff It looks to me like the white stuff is the ivory of the figure, carved down to a collar. The blade is held (firmly) in place with wooden shims. Attached Images