Benaki Museum, Athens

Sylektis · 4th December 2013, 10:08 PM

Great Museum, enjoy.

ariel · 5th December 2013, 02:43 AM

Which ones were actually manufactured in Greece rather than Bosnia/Montenegro/ Serbia etc?

I have scoured Elgood's book trying to find evidence of local Greek production and couldn't find anything.

digenis · 5th December 2013, 04:27 PM

I think the Elgood book shortchanges Greek silversmith work to a great extent. There is a great silversmith tradition in the NW part of the country in Janinna, Epirus. I was there this past summer and met some of the collectors and silversmiths Elgood allegedly spoke to when he was researching the book of the Arms of Greece. They seemed a little unhappy with the way the importance of their region in the assembly of arms had been minimized. The City of Janinna was the defacto capital of Greece in the 18th and early 19th century. I think there can be a serious debate as to what work is "Greek" and what is "Albanian" considering the cultures in that part of the world were so intermixed. I think Elgood's main premise is that the blades were primarily imported into the Ottoman Empire and then local artisans would assemble the weapon. The exception to this rule being Bosnia because of the existence iron ore. I find it peculiar that a local Greek industry would not have emerged since the Greeks had the right to bear arms (Armatoloi), were the most rebellious subjects (Klephts), and because of their sea faring skills probably the wealthiest among Ottoman subjects at the time of the Greek war of independence.

ariel · 6th December 2013, 02:59 AM

Elgood's book was underwritten by rich Greek collectors who, undobtedly, wanted to specifically promote genuinely Greek weapons. Not for nothing it was called "Arms of Greece and her Balkan neighbors":-) But in reality this book is about any other Balkan weapons, with Greece playing only minor role.

The paucity of genuinely Greek weapons was astonishing; history of Greece - yes, heroes - yes, but weapons..... not much.

I think the interpretation of old geography vs. current political maps played some role. Albania and Montenegro were richly presented, but their contribution was clearly separated from the the Greece proper. Perhaps, there was no real weapon industry in Greece proper, with, - conceivably? - some silversmithing being an exception?

I do not think Elgood's sponsors were happy with the final result. But I do not for a second cast any doubt on his scientific integrity. Unquestionably, he had very good reasons. However, I had a feeling that he was very cautious and almost evasive in not discussing Greek role in weapon manufacture, compensating by major emphasis on their War of Independence, trade, politics, personal heroism etc.

BTW, if something was truly shortchanged, IMHO, it was the heroic resistance of Skanderbeg, George Kastriotis. But he was an Albanian, wasn't he? :-)

digenis · 6th December 2013, 05:02 AM

I don't think there is a serious argument that can be made that the majority of arms used by the Greeks at that time were not primarily imported from other places in the Balkans, Asia Minor or Western Europe. Elgood however was limited in his efforts because he cannot speak Greek and could not refer to primary sources of the period. In his book about Greek weapons of the period (OPLA "Weapons"-ISBN 960-7299-00-0, EOMMEX publishing, 1989) Nikos Vassilatos a member of the British Arms and Armourers Society and academic collaborator of the Institute Suisse D' Armes Anciennes claims that the towns of Grevena in Northern Greece , Delvino (now in Albania but then heavily populated by Greeks) and in Naoussa, Northern Greece there was both firearms and edged weapons manufacture (including blades and gun barrels). The town of Janinna in Epirus, Greece is also highlighted as a center for the manufacture of long knives. Vassilatos cites the memoirs of British Captain Leake and the memoirs of Greek Chieftain Kosomoulis (a great source of information since he was a prolific writer). As to the silver smithing and assemblage of weapons I think the numbers of pistols, long guns, palas and yataghans with Greek-themed ornamentation (Athena, Medusa, Byzantine eagles, etc) speaks for itself. Again, not as many as from other places but not hard to find either. I guess someone could make the argument that they were made for the Greek market but here the sources pointing to Greek work are plentiful. It is documented that even Ali-Pasha used a Epirote-Greek silversmith. After 1830, and the establishment of the Greek Kingdom there are numerous citations about weapons manufacture and assemblage in other places like Nafplio. But by this time the golden age of Ottoman weapons was sunsetting (IMHO). Here you see a big array of "presentation" palas and yataghans that look good but had limited functional purpose. As far Georgos Kastriotis is concerned all we know was that he was orthodox and communicated in Greek. If the Albanians want to claim him as their own, good for them. Greece has more heroes than she knows what to do with them.

ariel · 6th December 2013, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by digenis

As far Georgos Kastriotis is concerned all we know was that he was orthodox and communicated in Greek. If the Albanians want to claim him as their own, good for them. Greece has more heroes than she knows what to do with them.

You might have missed my " smiley face" :-)

4th December 2013, 10:08 PM	#1
Sylektis Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 136	Benaki Museum, Athens Great Museum, enjoy. Attached Images

6th December 2013, 02:59 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Elgood's book was underwritten by rich Greek collectors who, undobtedly, wanted to specifically promote genuinely Greek weapons. Not for nothing it was called "Arms of Greece and her Balkan neighbors":-) But in reality this book is about any other Balkan weapons, with Greece playing only minor role. The paucity of genuinely Greek weapons was astonishing; history of Greece - yes, heroes - yes, but weapons..... not much. I think the interpretation of old geography vs. current political maps played some role. Albania and Montenegro were richly presented, but their contribution was clearly separated from the the Greece proper. Perhaps, there was no real weapon industry in Greece proper, with, - conceivably? - some silversmithing being an exception? I do not think Elgood's sponsors were happy with the final result. But I do not for a second cast any doubt on his scientific integrity. Unquestionably, he had very good reasons. However, I had a feeling that he was very cautious and almost evasive in not discussing Greek role in weapon manufacture, compensating by major emphasis on their War of Independence, trade, politics, personal heroism etc. BTW, if something was truly shortchanged, IMHO, it was the heroic resistance of Skanderbeg, George Kastriotis. But he was an Albanian, wasn't he? :-) Last edited by ariel; 6th December 2013 at 03:13 AM.

5th December 2013, 02:43 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Which ones were actually manufactured in Greece rather than Bosnia/Montenegro/ Serbia etc? I have scoured Elgood's book trying to find evidence of local Greek production and couldn't find anything.

5th December 2013, 04:27 PM	#3
digenis Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 48	I think the Elgood book shortchanges Greek silversmith work to a great extent. There is a great silversmith tradition in the NW part of the country in Janinna, Epirus. I was there this past summer and met some of the collectors and silversmiths Elgood allegedly spoke to when he was researching the book of the Arms of Greece. They seemed a little unhappy with the way the importance of their region in the assembly of arms had been minimized. The City of Janinna was the defacto capital of Greece in the 18th and early 19th century. I think there can be a serious debate as to what work is "Greek" and what is "Albanian" considering the cultures in that part of the world were so intermixed. I think Elgood's main premise is that the blades were primarily imported into the Ottoman Empire and then local artisans would assemble the weapon. The exception to this rule being Bosnia because of the existence iron ore. I find it peculiar that a local Greek industry would not have emerged since the Greeks had the right to bear arms (Armatoloi), were the most rebellious subjects (Klephts), and because of their sea faring skills probably the wealthiest among Ottoman subjects at the time of the Greek war of independence.

6th December 2013, 05:02 AM	#5
digenis Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 48	I don't think there is a serious argument that can be made that the majority of arms used by the Greeks at that time were not primarily imported from other places in the Balkans, Asia Minor or Western Europe. Elgood however was limited in his efforts because he cannot speak Greek and could not refer to primary sources of the period. In his book about Greek weapons of the period (OPLA "Weapons"-ISBN 960-7299-00-0, EOMMEX publishing, 1989) Nikos Vassilatos a member of the British Arms and Armourers Society and academic collaborator of the Institute Suisse D' Armes Anciennes claims that the towns of Grevena in Northern Greece , Delvino (now in Albania but then heavily populated by Greeks) and in Naoussa, Northern Greece there was both firearms and edged weapons manufacture (including blades and gun barrels). The town of Janinna in Epirus, Greece is also highlighted as a center for the manufacture of long knives. Vassilatos cites the memoirs of British Captain Leake and the memoirs of Greek Chieftain Kosomoulis (a great source of information since he was a prolific writer). As to the silver smithing and assemblage of weapons I think the numbers of pistols, long guns, palas and yataghans with Greek-themed ornamentation (Athena, Medusa, Byzantine eagles, etc) speaks for itself. Again, not as many as from other places but not hard to find either. I guess someone could make the argument that they were made for the Greek market but here the sources pointing to Greek work are plentiful. It is documented that even Ali-Pasha used a Epirote-Greek silversmith. After 1830, and the establishment of the Greek Kingdom there are numerous citations about weapons manufacture and assemblage in other places like Nafplio. But by this time the golden age of Ottoman weapons was sunsetting (IMHO). Here you see a big array of "presentation" palas and yataghans that look good but had limited functional purpose. As far Georgos Kastriotis is concerned all we know was that he was orthodox and communicated in Greek. If the Albanians want to claim him as their own, good for them. Greece has more heroes than she knows what to do with them.