small knife/dagger from India

Montino Bourbon · 21st February 2012, 05:02 PM

I just returned from a trip to Jaipur, India, where I saw quite a few well made daggers. Some of you may be familiar with the Damascus pattern that they're using for reproduction of antique daggers, mostly dense small dots and concentric rings. I had a very difficult time finding anything old, especially wootz. finally my tuk tuk driver said that he knew a place that had “old” things. I told him, explaining with photographic examples from my iPad, that I knew the difference between “real” old and “new” old, and that I would walk out laughing if they trird to pass off some of the new stuff on me. He brought me to a very large emporium, where a gentleman stood in front of a large display of the obviously “new” antiques. When I asked him to show me something old, he took down on old, battered looking dagger that was the same new material as all the rest. I laughed and started to walk out. “Wait, Sahib, I just wanted to make sure.” He said, then took me upstairs to the “back room”, where I was delighted to see about a dozen nice pieces of wootz, among other antiques. one of these pieces, This small knife/dagger, I liked a lot. Upon examination, I noticed a clear wootz pattern, not very visible in these photographs, and bought it immediately.

I have not tried to etch this blade, especially since reading some of the “restoration” threads. the pattern is absolutely plainly visible in sunlight. Any suggestions? Comments? If somebody can tell me more about this piece, I would greatly appreciate it.

VANDOO · 21st February 2012, 07:01 PM

NOT MY FIELD BUT THE TYPE STRIKES AS CLOSEST TO A KARD AND THE HANDLE LOOKS PERHAPS BOSNIAN IN FORM TO ME. OVERALL LESS INDIAN AND MORE ARABIC/TURKISH TO MY EYE. I CAN'T SEE THE STEEL AND YOU WILL HAVE MUCH MORE KNOWLEGE THAN I IN THAT. JUST OBSERVATIONS HOPEFULLY SOMEONE WITH MUCH MORE KNOWLEGE THAN I WILL GIVE YOU A POSITIVE IDENTIFICATION.
ITS ALWAYS NICE TO FIND SOMETHING GOOD WHILE TRAVELING

VERY NICE KNIFE!!

Stan S. · 21st February 2012, 07:11 PM

You are lucky. Upon my two visits to Mumbai (one lasting a whole month), I literally spent days looking to find genuine antiques and failed miserably. The excuse most shop-keepers gave me is that any sword or dagger made in the "old style" is in fact an antique. They woudl bat their eyes and look at me as if I was crazy when I tried to explain that these were modern repros

Montino Bourbon · 21st February 2012, 07:11 PM

yes, it does have that "Eared" look that some Balkan daggers have. The people where I bought it claim that it came from Bikaner, a small kingdom north of Jaipur.

Montino Bourbon · 21st February 2012, 07:13 PM

Stan–I know exactly what you mean. It obviously takes patience and luck to find anything genuine. Luckily for me, I had my iPad with me and showed them what wootz looks like, as well as what a well-made dagger looks like. They had no answer to that. A picture is worth 1000 words.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 22nd February 2012, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Montino Bourbon

I just returned from a trip to Jaipur, India, where I saw quite a few well made daggers. Some of you may be familiar with the Damascus pattern that they're using for reproduction of antique daggers, mostly dense small dots and concentric rings. I had a very difficult time finding anything old, especially wootz. finally my tuk tuk driver said that he knew a place that had “old” things. I told him, explaining with photographic examples from my iPad, that I knew the difference between “real” old and “new” old, and that I would walk out laughing if they trird to pass off some of the new stuff on me. He brought me to a very large emporium, where a gentleman stood in front of a large display of the obviously “new” antiques. When I asked him to show me something old, he took down on old, battered looking dagger that was the same new material as all the rest. I laughed and started to walk out. “Wait, Sahib, I just wanted to make sure.” He said, then took me upstairs to the “back room”, where I was delighted to see about a dozen nice pieces of wootz, among other antiques. one of these pieces, This small knife/dagger, I liked a lot. Upon examination, I noticed a clear wootz pattern, not very visible in these photographs, and bought it immediately.

I have not tried to etch this blade, especially since reading some of the “restoration” threads. the pattern is absolutely plainly visible in sunlight. Any suggestions? Comments? If somebody can tell me more about this piece, I would greatly appreciate it.

Salaams Montino Bourbon ~ Nice story and a familiar one to many who have trod the same or similar path...I think they term wootz as Johar in India..I note from forum library the two distinct types of wootz. You could try polishing the blade (etching) with vinegar rather than plunging in with strong acid.Hot vinegar is quite agressive...so be advised. Then clean it off in hot water and soap..and with a 00 grade paper bring up the grain..see what it looks like...Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Montino Bourbon · 22nd February 2012, 01:23 PM

I am an Indian musician, disciple of one of the greatest musicians of the last century, Ustad Ali Akbar Khan. I went primarily to play and enjoy music, and I had a wonderful time. I'm also very much of an appreciators of weapons, and went as far as to take a course in forging swords last year.

That experience changed my collecting forever; I was lucky enough to make an excellent Tanto, so my new collecting standard is that I will not buy something that isn't as good as what I can make myself.

There are very nice pieces being made, but they are not up to the standards of 200 years ago... Yet. Their smiths are learning fast, though. I suspect that they might read up and start trying to make Wootz soon....

I shall try the vinegar etch later today and post the results here. Thank you so much for the info, and I have to mention that I really appreciate your knowledge and your willingness to participate in this forum.

Montino

Atlantia · 22nd February 2012, 03:07 PM

Hi Montino,

I would say that the trend is staring to change in India from out and out reproductions towards rebuilds and restorations to maximise the value of 'old pieces' as collectors demand the genuine article.
I would say that the knife you have bought falls into that category.
I could be wrong as I am basing my thoughts on just the pictures of course, but it looks to me to have been recently polished/etched and I would suspect that the hilt slabs are new.

However, that said it looks to have been done very well and unlike many I see, it wasn't a project that started with a very poor worn blade.
Overall a rather nice thing.

Best
Gene

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 22nd February 2012, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Montino Bourbon

I am an Indian musician, disciple of one of the greatest musicians of the last century, Ustad Ali Akbar Khan. I went primarily to play and enjoy music, and I had a wonderful time. I'm also very much of an appreciators of weapons, and went as far as to take a course in forging swords last year.

That experience changed my collecting forever; I was lucky enough to make an excellent Tanto, so my new collecting standard is that I will not buy something that isn't as good as what I can make myself.

There are very nice pieces being made, but they are not up to the standards of 200 years ago... Yet. Their smiths are learning fast, though. I suspect that they might read up and start trying to make Wootz soon....

I shall try the vinegar etch later today and post the results here. Thank you so much for the info, and I have to mention that I really appreciate your knowledge and your willingness to participate in this forum.

Montino

Salaams Ya Ustad Montino Bourbon! Please take care with hot vinegar as it is agressive and I always treat it like a dangerous acid from the safety handling viewpoint and from the effect on the blade... you will have to watch how long it soaks. Its a trial and error and needs to be watched. Please combine this with what is noted on forum library on etching. Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

David R · 22nd February 2012, 11:29 PM

A gentleman on another forum swears by pineapple juice to bring out the pattern, and I have had decent results in the past from worcester sauce.

Lew · 23rd February 2012, 05:19 AM

A weak solution of ferric chloride 3 parts distilled water to one part ferric chloride should do the trick you can either dip into the solution directly for 30 seconds or apply even coats until the desired effect is reached but be careful not to over etch it. Rinse with warm water to neutralize the solution dry and apply a drop of mineral oil to the blade.

21st February 2012, 05:02 PM	#1
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	small Wootz knife/dagger from India I just returned from a trip to Jaipur, India, where I saw quite a few well made daggers. Some of you may be familiar with the Damascus pattern that they're using for reproduction of antique daggers, mostly dense small dots and concentric rings. I had a very difficult time finding anything old, especially wootz. finally my tuk tuk driver said that he knew a place that had “old” things. I told him, explaining with photographic examples from my iPad, that I knew the difference between “real” old and “new” old, and that I would walk out laughing if they trird to pass off some of the new stuff on me. He brought me to a very large emporium, where a gentleman stood in front of a large display of the obviously “new” antiques. When I asked him to show me something old, he took down on old, battered looking dagger that was the same new material as all the rest. I laughed and started to walk out. “Wait, Sahib, I just wanted to make sure.” He said, then took me upstairs to the “back room”, where I was delighted to see about a dozen nice pieces of wootz, among other antiques. one of these pieces, This small knife/dagger, I liked a lot. Upon examination, I noticed a clear wootz pattern, not very visible in these photographs, and bought it immediately. I have not tried to etch this blade, especially since reading some of the “restoration” threads. the pattern is absolutely plainly visible in sunlight. Any suggestions? Comments? If somebody can tell me more about this piece, I would greatly appreciate it. Attached Images Last edited by Montino Bourbon; 22nd February 2012 at 01:06 AM.

22nd February 2012, 01:23 PM	#7
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	Thank you, Ibrahim-Sahib! I am an Indian musician, disciple of one of the greatest musicians of the last century, Ustad Ali Akbar Khan. I went primarily to play and enjoy music, and I had a wonderful time. I'm also very much of an appreciators of weapons, and went as far as to take a course in forging swords last year. That experience changed my collecting forever; I was lucky enough to make an excellent Tanto, so my new collecting standard is that I will not buy something that isn't as good as what I can make myself. There are very nice pieces being made, but they are not up to the standards of 200 years ago... Yet. Their smiths are learning fast, though. I suspect that they might read up and start trying to make Wootz soon.... I shall try the vinegar etch later today and post the results here. Thank you so much for the info, and I have to mention that I really appreciate your knowledge and your willingness to participate in this forum. Montino

22nd February 2012, 11:29 PM	#10
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	Etch. A gentleman on another forum swears by pineapple juice to bring out the pattern, and I have had decent results in the past from worcester sauce.

21st February 2012, 07:01 PM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	NOT MY FIELD BUT THE TYPE STRIKES AS CLOSEST TO A KARD AND THE HANDLE LOOKS PERHAPS BOSNIAN IN FORM TO ME. OVERALL LESS INDIAN AND MORE ARABIC/TURKISH TO MY EYE. I CAN'T SEE THE STEEL AND YOU WILL HAVE MUCH MORE KNOWLEGE THAN I IN THAT. JUST OBSERVATIONS HOPEFULLY SOMEONE WITH MUCH MORE KNOWLEGE THAN I WILL GIVE YOU A POSITIVE IDENTIFICATION. ITS ALWAYS NICE TO FIND SOMETHING GOOD WHILE TRAVELING VERY NICE KNIFE!!

21st February 2012, 07:11 PM	#3
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	You are lucky. Upon my two visits to Mumbai (one lasting a whole month), I literally spent days looking to find genuine antiques and failed miserably. The excuse most shop-keepers gave me is that any sword or dagger made in the "old style" is in fact an antique. They woudl bat their eyes and look at me as if I was crazy when I tried to explain that these were modern repros

21st February 2012, 07:13 PM	#5
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	Stan–I know exactly what you mean. It obviously takes patience and luck to find anything genuine. Luckily for me, I had my iPad with me and showed them what wootz looks like, as well as what a well-made dagger looks like. They had no answer to that. A picture is worth 1000 words.

22nd February 2012, 03:07 PM	#8
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Montino, I would say that the trend is staring to change in India from out and out reproductions towards rebuilds and restorations to maximise the value of 'old pieces' as collectors demand the genuine article. I would say that the knife you have bought falls into that category. I could be wrong as I am basing my thoughts on just the pictures of course, but it looks to me to have been recently polished/etched and I would suspect that the hilt slabs are new. However, that said it looks to have been done very well and unlike many I see, it wasn't a project that started with a very poor worn blade. Overall a rather nice thing. Best Gene

23rd February 2012, 05:19 AM	#11
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	A weak solution of ferric chloride 3 parts distilled water to one part ferric chloride should do the trick you can either dip into the solution directly for 30 seconds or apply even coats until the desired effect is reached but be careful not to over etch it. Rinse with warm water to neutralize the solution dry and apply a drop of mineral oil to the blade.