Moro Keris for comments

Royston · 5th October 2011, 11:31 AM

I have had this one for a while now without doing anything to it.

I would be greatful for suggestions on origin and for cleaning.

Length is 62 inches. blade is 52 inches.

Pommel apprears to be bone. Stirrups appear silver.

The brown discolouration appears to be dried oil.

As usual, all suggestions and comments are welcome.
Thanks
Roy

Atlantia · 5th October 2011, 12:38 PM

Very nice Roy,

Pommel looks like Ivory from the grain.

CharlesS · 5th October 2011, 12:53 PM

Super piece....and an OLD one!

Battara · 5th October 2011, 03:59 PM

VERY NICE Sulu kris, though the scabbard throws me a little.

My biggest concern would be the active red rust - take that off first.

kai · 5th October 2011, 08:58 PM

Congrats, Roy, that certainly is a nice one! Did you get it out of the US?

The scabbard is a late replacement. I'm sure Jose can make a suitable one for this beauty.

I agree that the rust needs to be removed. However, in this case this needs special efforts not to loose the remaining inlay (seems to be silver). I'd suggest to remove as much rust as possible by very careful picking in the engraved lines with already missing inlay (start with wooden picks and use fine iron pins if needed - avoid scratches from steel needles though); also use very fine steel wool for cleaning rust off the blade surface (take care around the katik/gangya area to evenly clean everything including - as much as possible - hidden crevices since you won't be able to disassemble the asang-asang).

Once the blade looks almost clean, I'd give it a fine polish and continue with quickly staining the blade with hot vinegar (applied and rubbed in with a tough brush) which will also remove rust in tiny crevices, especially around the inlay. Even if you're really careful, there's still a good chance that some of the inlay may come off. However, this can be reapplied (take before and after pics to help solving the puzzle).

You could also apply lacquer to protect the inlay (can be removed again later) but this would also protect any remaining rust and IMHO more risky in the long run. You may want to use this for protecting the surface of the asang-asang, the ferule, and the silver covering the katik though.

BTW, the hole in the right-hand side of the ivory pommel probably once had an ivory peg securing it to the wooden core of the grip (this is usually a bit more hidden under the wrapping - just my best guess). Try to find a suitable piece of old ivory to replace it if possible.

Regards,
Kai

kai · 5th October 2011, 09:16 PM

Hello Roy,

I agree with the others that this obviously an above average datu piece displaying great Sulu craftmanship. I'm not sure it's older than, say, turn of the century though:

Does it have a seperate katik? (Is it the line ending at the upper asang-asang? An odd position - if tough to tell, the laminations will reveal more after staining.)

Regards,
Kai

laEspadaAncha · 5th October 2011, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Royston

I would be greatful for suggestions on origin and for cleaning.

Length is 62 inches. blade is 52 inches.

Hi Roy,

Beautiful kris!

I'm guessing the above measurements should read 62 cm and 52 cm, respectively...

Open question to Jose, Kai, et al... what is the significance of the arrow motif (engraved on either side of the fullering running beyond the stirrups onto the gangya)? Or are those even arrows, i.e, are they simply stemmed zig-zags?

Battara · 6th October 2011, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

what is the significance of the arrow motif (engraved on either side of the fullering running beyond the stirrups onto the gangya)? Or are those even arrows, i.e, are they simply stemmed zig-zags?

A good question. Not sure. Cato in his book Moro Swords says that they are arrows but does not clarify their meaning. All he says is that they are on datu pieces (and I choose to believe him based on what I have seen so far).

Sajen · 6th October 2011, 09:17 PM

Hello Roy,

beautiful kris, congrats. What is dried oil and what is rust? Would be much better when the engravings only have this oil inside and no rust. Much more easy to clean.

Regards,

Detlef

imas560 · 6th October 2011, 10:25 PM

Always amazed at the depth of knowledge in regards to best approach to clean and restore these items (kai's step by step process). Much appreciated especially by a member such as myself who doesn't have access to experts in the field.
Awesome piece by the way.

Royston · 7th October 2011, 10:34 AM

Thanks everyone for you comments, especially to you Kai.
I have started cleaning and it is coming along nicely. More photos will follow as I go.

A couple more questions and comments.

What's the best product to polish the blade ?
What's the best product for cleaning ivory ?

The Keris was bought in the UK back in 92 ( I did say I had had it a while !! )

Regards
Roy

Rick · 7th October 2011, 08:16 PM

I'm pretty sure that this sword is no more than a hundred yrs old .
A really nice high grade example of its time .

kai · 7th October 2011, 08:43 PM

Hello Rick,

Quote:

I'm pretty sure that this sword is no more than a hundred yrs old .
A really nice high grade example of its time .

First quarter of the 20th c. sounds reasonable IMHO. The engraving is less crisp at places...

Regards,
Kai

kai · 7th October 2011, 09:06 PM

Hello Roy,

Quote:

What's the best product to polish the blade ?

A polishing compound/paste (e. g. as used for strapping razors) comes in handy. I'd recommend to try a fine compound first after thorough cleaning - if you can live with a speck or two on a blade, this is often enough (takes a bit of elbow grease - no power tools!). If you wish to remove stubborn corrosion, you'll likely need coarser stones or sandpaper (both lubricated with water or oil) and lots of effort (knowledge and experience, too). I'd suggest to post pics first; in many cases it may be preferable to pass this job on to a professional (qualified) sword polisher.

Quote:

What's the best product for cleaning ivory ?

I don't think this pommel needs extensive cleaning - most of what I can see seems to be honest patina. Water with a tiny bit of detergent will probably take care of any grime. An old toothbrush and, if really needed, some toothpaste can be used for dirt in crevices. However, make sure that you don't get any paste on the grip binding - next to impossible to remove completely.

Regards,
Kai

CharlesS · 7th October 2011, 11:26 PM

I wouldn't clean the ivory, and I wouldn't put lacquer ANYwhere. Lacquer may have a short term reward, but in the long term it will not do anything but diminish the value and likely the beauty.

David · 7th October 2011, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

I wouldn't clean the ivory, and I wouldn't put lacquer ANYwhere. Lacquer may have a short term reward, but in the long term it will not do anything but diminish the value and likely the beauty.

I wouldn't "clean" the ivory either, but i would condition it. I usually use mineral oil. It "cleans" it up without removing any of the patina and gives the ivory a nice luster.

kai · 8th October 2011, 01:56 AM

Hello Charles,

Quote:

I wouldn't put lacquer ANYwhere. Lacquer may have a short term reward, but in the long term it will not do anything but diminish the value and likely the beauty.

The optional lacquer on the silver (inlay or next to the blade) is just for protecting it during the etching; it is to be carefully removed after finishing the blade. Shellac is a bit more forgiving and only needs ethanol as the solvent. Modern lacquer on wood/etc. is indeed a bad idea.

I agree that the (limited) protection is usually not worth the effort and hassle (if you know what you're doing and can work fast).

Regards,
Kai

CharlesS · 8th October 2011, 01:51 PM

Never heard of mineral oil for ivory, but seems like a plausible idea David. It doesn't leave any stain on the ivory? I know some thinner oils will.

5th October 2011, 11:31 AM	#1
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 442	Moro Keris for comments I have had this one for a while now without doing anything to it. I would be greatful for suggestions on origin and for cleaning. Length is 62 inches. blade is 52 inches. Pommel apprears to be bone. Stirrups appear silver. The brown discolouration appears to be dried oil. As usual, all suggestions and comments are welcome. Thanks Roy Attached Images

7th October 2011, 10:34 AM	#11
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 442	Cleaning Thanks everyone for you comments, especially to you Kai. I have started cleaning and it is coming along nicely. More photos will follow as I go. A couple more questions and comments. What's the best product to polish the blade ? What's the best product for cleaning ivory ? The Keris was bought in the UK back in 92 ( I did say I had had it a while !! ) Regards Roy

5th October 2011, 12:38 PM	#2
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Very nice Roy, Pommel looks like Ivory from the grain.

5th October 2011, 12:53 PM	#3
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Super piece....and an OLD one!

5th October 2011, 03:59 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,217	VERY NICE Sulu kris, though the scabbard throws me a little. My biggest concern would be the active red rust - take that off first.

5th October 2011, 08:58 PM	#5
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,253	Congrats, Roy, that certainly is a nice one! Did you get it out of the US? The scabbard is a late replacement. I'm sure Jose can make a suitable one for this beauty. I agree that the rust needs to be removed. However, in this case this needs special efforts not to loose the remaining inlay (seems to be silver). I'd suggest to remove as much rust as possible by very careful picking in the engraved lines with already missing inlay (start with wooden picks and use fine iron pins if needed - avoid scratches from steel needles though); also use very fine steel wool for cleaning rust off the blade surface (take care around the katik/gangya area to evenly clean everything including - as much as possible - hidden crevices since you won't be able to disassemble the asang-asang). Once the blade looks almost clean, I'd give it a fine polish and continue with quickly staining the blade with hot vinegar (applied and rubbed in with a tough brush) which will also remove rust in tiny crevices, especially around the inlay. Even if you're really careful, there's still a good chance that some of the inlay may come off. However, this can be reapplied (take before and after pics to help solving the puzzle). You could also apply lacquer to protect the inlay (can be removed again later) but this would also protect any remaining rust and IMHO more risky in the long run. You may want to use this for protecting the surface of the asang-asang, the ferule, and the silver covering the katik though. BTW, the hole in the right-hand side of the ivory pommel probably once had an ivory peg securing it to the wooden core of the grip (this is usually a bit more hidden under the wrapping - just my best guess). Try to find a suitable piece of old ivory to replace it if possible. Regards, Kai

5th October 2011, 09:16 PM	#6
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,253	Hello Roy, I agree with the others that this obviously an above average datu piece displaying great Sulu craftmanship. I'm not sure it's older than, say, turn of the century though: Does it have a seperate katik? (Is it the line ending at the upper asang-asang? An odd position - if tough to tell, the laminations will reveal more after staining.) Regards, Kai

6th October 2011, 09:17 PM	#9
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,754	Hello Roy, beautiful kris, congrats. What is dried oil and what is rust? Would be much better when the engravings only have this oil inside and no rust. Much more easy to clean. Regards, Detlef

6th October 2011, 10:25 PM	#10
imas560 Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 180	Always amazed at the depth of knowledge in regards to best approach to clean and restore these items (kai's step by step process). Much appreciated especially by a member such as myself who doesn't have access to experts in the field. Awesome piece by the way.

7th October 2011, 08:16 PM	#12
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,289	I'm pretty sure that this sword is no more than a hundred yrs old . A really nice high grade example of its time .

7th October 2011, 11:26 PM	#15
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	I wouldn't clean the ivory, and I wouldn't put lacquer ANYwhere. Lacquer may have a short term reward, but in the long term it will not do anything but diminish the value and likely the beauty.

8th October 2011, 01:51 PM	#18
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Never heard of mineral oil for ivory, but seems like a plausible idea David. It doesn't leave any stain on the ivory? I know some thinner oils will.