“Old Javanese Gold: The Hunter Thompson Collection,” Yale University Art Gallery

Gustav · 24th July 2011, 04:56 PM

Current exposition; an interesting hilt for viewing pleasure. Description says 1000-1400 (John Miksic is involved in this exhibition), which seems rather vague.

Some thoughts about the integrity of this objekt? How is it with the length of fingernails on Nyamba? At least the thumb of left hand (from Nyambas position

) seems to be long on old examples (?).

Sajen · 24th July 2011, 07:15 PM

Hello Gustav,

I don't think that this is a Nyamba hilt in classic form, it look like a raksasa hilt from Cirebon. I doubt the given age of this handle.

Regards,

Detlef

Gustav · 24th July 2011, 09:24 PM

I must say, I was incorrect regarding the fingernails.

Ornamentics within Tumpal are correct, compare to figural hilts from old european collections (most of them are in Krisdisk/chapter Banten). Problem is, in these collections we don't see this exact type of hilt, so no comparison for the upper parts.

Hilts associated with Cirebon seem to have more abstract scrollwork ornamentic within tumpal (there also are the longer fingers/nails occuring). On this hilt they are deep, naturalistically shaped, with a nice Bintulu at the front.

If this would be a later work (after 17.cent.), we should select regions, where such ornamentics could be done, and here I don't have the necessary knowledge. I have seen very few pictures of Nyamba hilts (East Java?), they are by far more superficially worked, yet tend to have similar adornments with stones on the brest. Ornamentics on Balinese Tumpal are sometimes quite similar, yet different in style.

Please excuse me for this strange monologue, I simply find this a very interesting object for discussion, and hope, more knowledgable members then I would offer their thoughts here (thank you, Detlef!).

Sajen · 24th July 2011, 11:31 PM

Hello Gustav,

here a older thread where are shown two Nyamba hilts: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=nyamba

Regards,

Detlef

Jean · 25th July 2011, 08:46 AM

I agree with Detlef, may be the estimated date of manufacturing is after Mohammed and not A.D, haha!

Jean · 25th July 2011, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

I don't think that this is a Nyamba hilt in classic form.

Regards,

Detlef

I also agree with Detlef. There is a conical base on this hilt which was probably inserted in a selut like the Balinese hilts. In his book Keris - Griffe, pages 47 to 50, Martin Kerner attributes this type of hilt to the Majapahit period (hence the estimated date range 1000 - 1400). It is very doubtful that this hilt is actually as old but its origin may be East Java.

Gustav · 25th July 2011, 10:09 AM

Thank you for your responses

It seems to be one of the prestige objects of this collection, which claims to be one of the most important ones of Javanese gold. Maybe somebody of members has the catalogue: http://www.yalebooks.co.uk/display.asp?K=9780300169102?
I hope the description would say something more about it.

About the date: I don't understand, how it is possible to put this object in such a fictional time span (which actually has not so much to do with the time span of existing of Mojopahit). One must conclude, there were no developments and changes in art in this time, which were absolutely incorrect.

For an object with such construction the state of preservation seems to be near to pristine. Is it possible, even if this object would come from 1500-1600?

Taking a look at the adornments with stones, I cannot believe, there would not be some kind of restoration or additions made, if this object would have such age indeed.

A. G. Maisey · 25th July 2011, 12:15 PM

I can understand your doubts, gentlemen, however, John Miksic is one of the notable authorities in this field. He has spent considerable time in Indonesia.

People with a reputation tend to guard it and to be cautious, rather than not.

I suggest you google Miksic and ask yourself if he would be likely to endanger his own reputation.

As for the object itself.

I have seen gold objects from the Wonoboyo hoard. They look as if they came off the workbench the day before yesterday. I have seen archaic gold objects from other places in the world. It has been absolutely impossible for me to judge their age. My wife owns some items of Majapahit gold. If I did not know these things were more than 500 years old, I would say they were less than 50 years old.

Stylistically this hilt seems to be Majapahit.

Personally, I would not question it --- most especially would I not question it on the basis of information from a photograph.

Gustav · 25th July 2011, 12:39 PM

Thank you, Alan. I am well aware of status of John Miksic, and were very interested in his description of this object; perhaps in a month I will be able to obtain this book myself.

24th July 2011, 04:56 PM	#1
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,232	“Old Javanese Gold: The Hunter Thompson Collection,” Yale University Art Gallery Current exposition; an interesting hilt for viewing pleasure. Description says 1000-1400 (John Miksic is involved in this exhibition), which seems rather vague. Some thoughts about the integrity of this objekt? How is it with the length of fingernails on Nyamba? At least the thumb of left hand (from Nyambas position ) seems to be long on old examples (?). Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; 24th July 2011 at 05:26 PM.

24th July 2011, 07:15 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,715	Hello Gustav, I don't think that this is a Nyamba hilt in classic form, it look like a raksasa hilt from Cirebon. I doubt the given age of this handle. Regards, Detlef

24th July 2011, 09:24 PM	#3
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,232	I must say, I was incorrect regarding the fingernails. Ornamentics within Tumpal are correct, compare to figural hilts from old european collections (most of them are in Krisdisk/chapter Banten). Problem is, in these collections we don't see this exact type of hilt, so no comparison for the upper parts. Hilts associated with Cirebon seem to have more abstract scrollwork ornamentic within tumpal (there also are the longer fingers/nails occuring). On this hilt they are deep, naturalistically shaped, with a nice Bintulu at the front. If this would be a later work (after 17.cent.), we should select regions, where such ornamentics could be done, and here I don't have the necessary knowledge. I have seen very few pictures of Nyamba hilts (East Java?), they are by far more superficially worked, yet tend to have similar adornments with stones on the brest. Ornamentics on Balinese Tumpal are sometimes quite similar, yet different in style. Please excuse me for this strange monologue, I simply find this a very interesting object for discussion, and hope, more knowledgable members then I would offer their thoughts here (thank you, Detlef!).

24th July 2011, 11:31 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,715	Hello Gustav, here a older thread where are shown two Nyamba hilts: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=nyamba Regards, Detlef

25th July 2011, 08:46 AM	#5
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	I agree with Detlef, may be the estimated date of manufacturing is after Mohammed and not A.D, haha!

25th July 2011, 10:09 AM	#7
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,232	Thank you for your responses It seems to be one of the prestige objects of this collection, which claims to be one of the most important ones of Javanese gold. Maybe somebody of members has the catalogue: http://www.yalebooks.co.uk/display.asp?K=9780300169102? I hope the description would say something more about it. About the date: I don't understand, how it is possible to put this object in such a fictional time span (which actually has not so much to do with the time span of existing of Mojopahit). One must conclude, there were no developments and changes in art in this time, which were absolutely incorrect. For an object with such construction the state of preservation seems to be near to pristine. Is it possible, even if this object would come from 1500-1600? Taking a look at the adornments with stones, I cannot believe, there would not be some kind of restoration or additions made, if this object would have such age indeed.

25th July 2011, 12:15 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,819	I can understand your doubts, gentlemen, however, John Miksic is one of the notable authorities in this field. He has spent considerable time in Indonesia. People with a reputation tend to guard it and to be cautious, rather than not. I suggest you google Miksic and ask yourself if he would be likely to endanger his own reputation. As for the object itself. I have seen gold objects from the Wonoboyo hoard. They look as if they came off the workbench the day before yesterday. I have seen archaic gold objects from other places in the world. It has been absolutely impossible for me to judge their age. My wife owns some items of Majapahit gold. If I did not know these things were more than 500 years old, I would say they were less than 50 years old. Stylistically this hilt seems to be Majapahit. Personally, I would not question it --- most especially would I not question it on the basis of information from a photograph.

25th July 2011, 12:39 PM	#9
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,232	Thank you, Alan. I am well aware of status of John Miksic, and were very interested in his description of this object; perhaps in a month I will be able to obtain this book myself.