Question about barrel stamping

fahnenschmied · 22nd September 2009, 02:58 PM

Pardon me rolling out this question as my first post, but the museum that I work for is making a new exhibit and I happened to notice an old gun that was planned to be displayed. The tag proclaimed it to be a "Pennsylvania long rifle" but I knew this to be untrue, because it had a shortened fowler barrel. It is a gun that has been restocked sometime in the early 1820s or so, in a German-american style, but as I don't worship at the American Long Rifle Shrine, I don't know which style or school it would be from. The work was surely done by an American somewhere here. But that is not my question. What interested me was the barrel and remnant of the trigger guard. To judge from the length of the octagonal portion of the breech, it must have been a barrel of considerable lenth, about five or so feet....its cut down to about 36 -38 inches now. About twenty or sixteen bore in size - smaller than 12. No visible proof marks that I know, the only mark visible on the barrel - short of unstocking it - is a punch mark about 4 by 8 millimeters with the figure of a standing man holding some kind of spear. I was hopeful someone knew this mark or could possibly direct me to an online guide to such marks....I can't find much myself.
The other part of this rebuilt gun that is probably original to it is the trigger guard. The front finial is surely from the 1720s to the 1740s; but the rear of the guard has been modified to resembled a longrifle guard. Sorry no photos are at hand. Possibly the rammer pipes are original to that, but the lock is from the 1820s so no help there!
I feel this must have been something like a "long fowler", but I'd like to have a better idea of where this barrel came from.

I stumbled on this forum looking for decent pictures of old guns to build, I am totally amazed at the photos found here of handcannons, matchlocks and the accoutrements for them - far better than any book I've ever seen - or any museum I've been to!
I just hope somebody can help me with a "modern" gun question.

many thanks,

Dave

Matchlock · 22nd September 2009, 05:44 PM

Welcome, Dave!

As you rightly remarked, photos are the most important thing. Please do not expect all of us to have supernatural gifts or be omniscient.

Good and detailed images would be an indispensable prerequisite for any substantial comment on 'your' gun in question.

Best,
Michael

Jim McDougall · 23rd September 2009, 03:41 AM

Hello Fahnenschmeid, and I'd like to welcome you to the forum! I'm really glad to see your question, a topic that I seem to have been pretty well immersed in of late. The recent topic on Mormon guns (the Nauvoo Legion) has actually led into a great deal of focus on these kinds of guns.
These guns were well known throughout the midwest regions which were in those days the wild west of this young country, and there were many gunsmiths from primarily Germany and other European countries who plied thier craft in developing populations here.

The term 'long rifle' seems to have been almost indiscriminately applied to flintlock rifles sold and used from Pennsylvania to Kentucky and Missouri.
I'll check some references here, but some photos would really help, especially of that marking. Sounds like an intriguing gun!

Thank you for posting here!!! Very much appreciated.

All the best,
Jim

fahnenschmied · 23rd September 2009, 04:56 AM

Hello all, I will strive to get a photo or two, but as is all too common in the museum field - there are droves of people working with things they know absolutely nothing about, and the one person in charge of this exhibit is a former boss of mine who is the most unpleasant person I've ever worked with. Care must be taken to not alarm them that I am trying to somehow do their job, or show how incompetent they really are, etc.
I just thought it might be worth a try without photos, as there are many marks I can guess at from a description.
"Long rifles" are not of my concern at the moment, aside from the fact they are rather over represented here....by far the predomiant arm in this state - North Carolina - was smoothbore and of English or European manufacture.

Had the rear octagonal section of this barrel been shorter, I might have thought it was a reworked French trade gun, as the guard finial reminded me
of such shaping. Had there been lines on either side of the guard bow, I'd have thought Dutch. But perhaps that detail got removed in its rebuilding...

If I can get permission I'll make some photos...

celtan · 23rd September 2009, 02:31 PM

: )

Been there, I can conmiserate. I have even seen tourist-market toys "preserved" within humidity/temperature regulated enclosures, expensive displays, you know. Cheap modern replicas cared for as 18th C. Brown Besses. Rare artillery pieces left to rot. Galvanism corroding touching blades of different metallic compostion. Flintlocks and Percussion Locks displayed with their hammers in either Ready or Safe positions. Red rust on ancient blades...

The reaction of the "curators" after being informed? None. That would be like admitting they committed a gaffe. Nothing changes.

And they all limit access to their caches, as if they actually belonged to them, instead of being sources of knowledge meant to be shared.

Nuff'sed

Send pics, if you can!

Manuel Luis

Quote:

Originally Posted by fahnenschmied

Hello all, I will strive to get a photo or two, but as is all too common in the museum field - there are droves of people working with things they know absolutely nothing about, and the one person in charge of this exhibit is a former boss of mine who is the most unpleasant person I've ever worked with. Care must be taken to not alarm them that I am trying to somehow do their job, or show how incompetent they really are, etc.

Jim McDougall · 24th September 2009, 02:57 AM

While awaiting photos, if possible, especially of the marking, I thought I would just add a few notes. Though certainly outside my usual fields of study, as I have noted, Americana has become increasingly interesting as I travel into these historical regions. I just left Utah heading into Idaho toward Washington, Lewis & Clark regions.

Apparantly by the 1820's and 30's, a number of Pennsylvania makers were making 'short' barrel flintlocks, such as B.D.Gill of Lancaster; John Krider of Philadephia and S.Shuler of Liverpool. I think that the English fowling guns that served as prototypes for the fowling guns in America had very long barrels, but few, if any were produced in America until after the Revolutionary War. One of the earliest producers noted was Thomas Palmer of Pennsylvania.
While fowling guns were typically of smaller caliber, it seems they were part round and part octagonal in the barrel if I understand correctly. The 'long rifles' such as the famed Hawken were of much larger calibers.

I understand also that until the mid 19th century, flintlock smoothbores were preferred in many cases due to simplicity in procuring powder and material for ammunition vs,. difficulty in same acquiring caps or cartridges for the newr cap and ball guns.

22nd September 2009, 02:58 PM	#1
fahnenschmied Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 12	Question about barrel stamping Pardon me rolling out this question as my first post, but the museum that I work for is making a new exhibit and I happened to notice an old gun that was planned to be displayed. The tag proclaimed it to be a "Pennsylvania long rifle" but I knew this to be untrue, because it had a shortened fowler barrel. It is a gun that has been restocked sometime in the early 1820s or so, in a German-american style, but as I don't worship at the American Long Rifle Shrine, I don't know which style or school it would be from. The work was surely done by an American somewhere here. But that is not my question. What interested me was the barrel and remnant of the trigger guard. To judge from the length of the octagonal portion of the breech, it must have been a barrel of considerable lenth, about five or so feet....its cut down to about 36 -38 inches now. About twenty or sixteen bore in size - smaller than 12. No visible proof marks that I know, the only mark visible on the barrel - short of unstocking it - is a punch mark about 4 by 8 millimeters with the figure of a standing man holding some kind of spear. I was hopeful someone knew this mark or could possibly direct me to an online guide to such marks....I can't find much myself. The other part of this rebuilt gun that is probably original to it is the trigger guard. The front finial is surely from the 1720s to the 1740s; but the rear of the guard has been modified to resembled a longrifle guard. Sorry no photos are at hand. Possibly the rammer pipes are original to that, but the lock is from the 1820s so no help there! I feel this must have been something like a "long fowler", but I'd like to have a better idea of where this barrel came from. I stumbled on this forum looking for decent pictures of old guns to build, I am totally amazed at the photos found here of handcannons, matchlocks and the accoutrements for them - far better than any book I've ever seen - or any museum I've been to! I just hope somebody can help me with a "modern" gun question. many thanks, Dave

22nd September 2009, 05:44 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Welcome, Dave! As you rightly remarked, photos are the most important thing. Please do not expect all of us to have supernatural gifts or be omniscient. Good and detailed images would be an indispensable prerequisite for any substantial comment on 'your' gun in question. Best, Michael

23rd September 2009, 03:41 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hello Fahnenschmeid, and I'd like to welcome you to the forum! I'm really glad to see your question, a topic that I seem to have been pretty well immersed in of late. The recent topic on Mormon guns (the Nauvoo Legion) has actually led into a great deal of focus on these kinds of guns. These guns were well known throughout the midwest regions which were in those days the wild west of this young country, and there were many gunsmiths from primarily Germany and other European countries who plied thier craft in developing populations here. The term 'long rifle' seems to have been almost indiscriminately applied to flintlock rifles sold and used from Pennsylvania to Kentucky and Missouri. I'll check some references here, but some photos would really help, especially of that marking. Sounds like an intriguing gun! Thank you for posting here!!! Very much appreciated. All the best, Jim

23rd September 2009, 04:56 AM	#4
fahnenschmied Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 12	Hello all, I will strive to get a photo or two, but as is all too common in the museum field - there are droves of people working with things they know absolutely nothing about, and the one person in charge of this exhibit is a former boss of mine who is the most unpleasant person I've ever worked with. Care must be taken to not alarm them that I am trying to somehow do their job, or show how incompetent they really are, etc. I just thought it might be worth a try without photos, as there are many marks I can guess at from a description. "Long rifles" are not of my concern at the moment, aside from the fact they are rather over represented here....by far the predomiant arm in this state - North Carolina - was smoothbore and of English or European manufacture. Had the rear octagonal section of this barrel been shorter, I might have thought it was a reworked French trade gun, as the guard finial reminded me of such shaping. Had there been lines on either side of the guard bow, I'd have thought Dutch. But perhaps that detail got removed in its rebuilding... If I can get permission I'll make some photos...

24th September 2009, 02:57 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	While awaiting photos, if possible, especially of the marking, I thought I would just add a few notes. Though certainly outside my usual fields of study, as I have noted, Americana has become increasingly interesting as I travel into these historical regions. I just left Utah heading into Idaho toward Washington, Lewis & Clark regions. Apparantly by the 1820's and 30's, a number of Pennsylvania makers were making 'short' barrel flintlocks, such as B.D.Gill of Lancaster; John Krider of Philadephia and S.Shuler of Liverpool. I think that the English fowling guns that served as prototypes for the fowling guns in America had very long barrels, but few, if any were produced in America until after the Revolutionary War. One of the earliest producers noted was Thomas Palmer of Pennsylvania. While fowling guns were typically of smaller caliber, it seems they were part round and part octagonal in the barrel if I understand correctly. The 'long rifles' such as the famed Hawken were of much larger calibers. I understand also that until the mid 19th century, flintlock smoothbores were preferred in many cases due to simplicity in procuring powder and material for ammunition vs,. difficulty in same acquiring caps or cartridges for the newr cap and ball guns.