Naga keris - original?

erikscollectables · 19th June 2009, 04:45 PM

Just received this in the mail.
Bought the keris for the nice Madura sarong it was in.
That might be good because I have some doubts if this naga is original or a later addition....

The keris/wilah itself I think is old. I am surprised though by the structure/texture/colour of the pamor and the length of the peksi. I do not have the impression this is recent work byt on the other hand it is quite different from what I see on a regular basis....

Would like to hear your opinions on this as I am far from specialist in these matters.

Regards, Erik

erikscollectables · 23rd June 2009, 08:03 PM

No opinions around on this naga keris?

Henk · 23rd June 2009, 08:41 PM

Brand new keris. Poorly executed. Sorry.

Battara · 23rd June 2009, 11:49 PM

Is this because it lacks ron do and the way it was heavily etched?

Henk · 24th June 2009, 04:27 PM

The way of heavily etching, yes, but also the pesi is the proof of a recent keris.

A. G. Maisey · 25th June 2009, 01:09 AM

Henk, if by "recent" you mean a keris that has been produced within the last 120 years or so, I agree with you.

However, this keris does not bear the indicators of one that has been made since, say, 1975.

Current keris production is limited to rather specific areas, and has rather specific styles, which are pretty easy to recognise once you've seen enough of them.

This blade does not bear any of those indicators.

To my eye, this is a blade that has been produced after, say, 1880, it is quite low quality, and it lacks any artistic refinement. The 1880 date is very much a ballpark figure, but it is not a blade from any of the current sources of production.

ganjawulung · 28th June 2009, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

... but also the pesi is the proof of a recent keris.

If you ask Maduran people, what Maduran keris they like much -- then one almost certain answer would be "Kasa kerises"... They mean, kerises which were made by Empu Kasa, or at least have characteristics of Kasa's keris. For Sumenep people, they like Sumala or Panembahan Sumolo kerises...

IMHO, Kasa's characteristics mostly: "ngulit semangka" pamor with extreme layers (erik's keris has such pamor), and sturdy pesi (I post three of around five old Maduran kerises I have, with such sturdy pesi), and if keris with luks, Kasa's style usually have complete janggut-jenggot (above the sekar kacang) and complete greneng -- with ron dha nunut or double greneng...

Erik's keris has characteristics of what Maduran people say, Kasa's keris. Old. But the question is the proportion of the gandhik with naga relief. Not quite proportional with the size of the overall blade.

GANJAWULUNG

Gustav · 27th June 2009, 04:52 PM

In the last time I have seen another east-javanese/maduranese Keris, probably the begin of the second half of 19 century, in a good dress (most likely original), with a similar kind of pamor, and ganja also seems to be not separate.

(I hope, the attachment works)

David · 27th June 2009, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

In the last time I have seen another east-javanese/maduranese Keris, probably the begin of the second half of 19 century, in a good dress (most likely original), with a similar kind of pamor, and ganja also seems to be not separate.

(I hope, the attachment works)

Welcome to the forum Gustav. As best i can tell the gonjo is indeed seperate in both the keris from this thread and the one you just posted. In hand i might have a different opinion.

Rick · 27th June 2009, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Welcome to the forum Gustav. As best i can tell the gonjo is indeed seperate in both the keris from this thread and the one you just posted. In hand i might have a different opinion.

Humbly disagree David .

If you look at Gustav's example you can see the pamor lines continue undisturbed across the ganja demarcation line .

Gustav · 27th June 2009, 08:15 PM

Hallo David, thanks for welcome also.

It is just my humble opinion. The line between ganja and the rest is just to perfect, very straight. From there comes the stifness in the appearance.
What is interesting for me : the examples are POSSIBLY all from East-Java, POSSIBLY from the second half of 19th century.

Sorry for borrowing the pictures! I hope, I made no mistake.

David · 28th June 2009, 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

It is just my humble opinion. The line between ganja and the rest is just to perfect, very straight. From there comes the stifness in the appearance.
What is interesting for me : the examples are POSSIBLY all from East-Java, POSSIBLY from the second half of 19th century.

Gustav, the more i look at your blade the more i believe Rick (and you of course) is right. Most probably gonjo iras. I doubt this is the case with Erik's blade though. As for Willem's blade from the other thread, i see why you question it, but frankly i cannot tell from his photos. It is clearly cut through at the tail end of the gonjo which would be a little unusual with gonjo iras, but not impossible. Perhaps Willem can answer your question. If i had this keris in hand i would probably take a pin and see if i could push it through the separation. Might just be gunk in there.
I will say that if you are questioning or trying to make a case for gonjo iras blades being more popular in East Jawa during the late 19th century i am not convinced that you will find any compelling evidence to support that case. In my limited experience at least, gonjo iras blades have always been the exception in any given time period or area unless, of course, we are discussing keris sajen which are usually gonjo iras.

David · 27th June 2009, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Humbly disagree David .

If you look at Gustav's example you can see the pamor lines continue undisturbed across the ganja demarcation line .

As i stated Rick, in hand my opinion might be different. I do see what you mean now, especially in the gandik area. The screen on my laptop isn't stellar and i didn't notice that before.
I still remain fairly convinced that Erik's originally posted blade does indeed have a seperate gonjo. How about it Erik, can you tell in hand?

Rick · 28th June 2009, 02:49 AM

I agree, Erik's example looks more like separate construction .
There is no real continuity to the pamor across the line of demarcation .

Gustav's however ... ??

erikscollectables · 28th June 2009, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

As i stated Rick, in hand my opinion might be different. I do see what you mean now, especially in the gandik area. The screen on my laptop isn't stellar and i didn't notice that before.
I still remain fairly convinced that Erik's originally posted blade does indeed have a seperate gonjo. How about it Erik, can you tell in hand?

Yes the gonjo is seperate.
Just had a look at it!

Regards, Erik

19th June 2009, 04:45 PM	#1
erikscollectables Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 318	Naga keris - original? Just received this in the mail. Bought the keris for the nice Madura sarong it was in. That might be good because I have some doubts if this naga is original or a later addition.... The keris/wilah itself I think is old. I am surprised though by the structure/texture/colour of the pamor and the length of the peksi. I do not have the impression this is recent work byt on the other hand it is quite different from what I see on a regular basis.... Would like to hear your opinions on this as I am far from specialist in these matters. Regards, Erik Attached Images Last edited by erikscollectables; 19th June 2009 at 08:45 PM.

27th June 2009, 04:52 PM	#8
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,254	In the last time I have seen another east-javanese/maduranese Keris, probably the begin of the second half of 19 century, in a good dress (most likely original), with a similar kind of pamor, and ganja also seems to be not separate. (I hope, the attachment works) Attached Images

27th June 2009, 08:15 PM	#11
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,254	Hallo David, thanks for welcome also. It is just my humble opinion. The line between ganja and the rest is just to perfect, very straight. From there comes the stifness in the appearance. What is interesting for me : the examples are POSSIBLY all from East-Java, POSSIBLY from the second half of 19th century. Sorry for borrowing the pictures! I hope, I made no mistake. Attached Images

23rd June 2009, 08:03 PM	#2
erikscollectables Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 318	No opinions around on this naga keris?

23rd June 2009, 08:41 PM	#3
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Brand new keris. Poorly executed. Sorry.

23rd June 2009, 11:49 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,243	Is this because it lacks ron do and the way it was heavily etched?

24th June 2009, 04:27 PM	#5
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	The way of heavily etching, yes, but also the pesi is the proof of a recent keris.

25th June 2009, 01:09 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,942	Henk, if by "recent" you mean a keris that has been produced within the last 120 years or so, I agree with you. However, this keris does not bear the indicators of one that has been made since, say, 1975. Current keris production is limited to rather specific areas, and has rather specific styles, which are pretty easy to recognise once you've seen enough of them. This blade does not bear any of those indicators. To my eye, this is a blade that has been produced after, say, 1880, it is quite low quality, and it lacks any artistic refinement. The 1880 date is very much a ballpark figure, but it is not a blade from any of the current sources of production.

28th June 2009, 02:49 AM	#14
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,308	I agree, Erik's example looks more like separate construction . There is no real continuity to the pamor across the line of demarcation . Gustav's however ... ??