Is this Indo-Persian?

Iliad · 24th May 2009, 11:14 PM

Hi all, this is a recent purchase..........as you all know by now, I buy edged weapons because they look pretty, and then wonder what they are! The back edge for about 6 inches back from the tip is quite sharp; there are no markings at all on the blade; the silver scabbard has been mended in the centre section , with an inferior metal (it has a greenish tinge, so maybe some copper in there); the handgrip has panels of what I think is ivory. I took the sword to a silversmith and he tested the metal and confirmed that it is silver. Solid silver scabbard and silver on the grip indicates (to me anyway) that it must have been owned by someone of status. The ivory(?) panels are dark on one side of the grip and light on the other, and I am told that ivory exposed to the light remains light in color and ivory kept in the dark turns yellowish, hence my thought of ivory rather than bone or other.
All comments welcome, and thank you in advance.
Brian

TVV · 24th May 2009, 11:20 PM

Brian,

This sword is somewhere from the Arab peninsula, or maybe Syrian, based on the hilt shape and the decoration on the scabbard. To me the hlit looks like bone.

Nice sword.

Teodor

ariel · 25th May 2009, 03:09 AM

It was supposed to be worn edge down. It does not look like a katana or a shashka:-)

Jim McDougall · 25th May 2009, 03:16 AM

Absolutely phenomenal Brian!!While Teodor is right, this does have initial appearance of Arab sabres and resemblance to the 'Baddawi' style hilts on many of them. The scabbard resembles those on the sa'if of Hadrahmaut and Yemen, however the carrying rings are not in the normal baldric style.

This scabbard has the carrying rings on the convex side, with blade worn edge up, in the style of the shashka. The right angled pommel on the hilt, Persian style crossguard, scabbard of noted Hadhramauti style (these are known to have been produced in Hyderbad, India) and triple fullered trade blade strongly suggest this is a Caucasian sabre, presumably Georgian and possibly even a Khevsur weapon.
With trade contacts with India, the features on the scabbard (the aghrab device on scabbard throat) and the wire wrap at grip neck (seen on Persian and Arab sabres, but some shashir styles in India also), these influences reached Caucasian craftsmen as well.

There are of course certain complexities in the elements of the sabre overall, but I would think this is a very interesting sabre of these Caucasian regions.

Further research may reveal more, but from first glance this is my opinion.

All very best regards,
Jim

kahnjar1 · 25th May 2009, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Brian,

This sword is somewhere from the Arab peninsula, or maybe Syrian, based on the hilt shape and the decoration on the scabbard. To me the hlit looks like bone.

Nice sword.

Teodor

Hi Brian,
I wondered how long it would take for this to appear here! My initial comments to you appear to be correct in that it is from the Arabian Peninsula. I SHOULD have out bid you afterall as the new pics show it in much better light than the originals! Anyway WELL DONE> I might have to have a SERIOUS talk to you at some stage! The blade looks to me to be european even though it has no marks. Somewhat better in appearance the locally made.
Regards Stuart

TVV · 25th May 2009, 06:40 PM

Jim,

I completely missed the upside down suspension. I was wondering, could it be a blade mounted in Arabia for one of the Caucasian immigrants there, rather than arab style decoration making its way to the Caucasus?

Teodor

Jim McDougall · 25th May 2009, 09:44 PM

Hi Teodor,
To be honest, I missed it too as I was first looking at this, but something seemed amiss, and finally...bonk! there it was.
This piece has all the indicators that it may be one of the multitudes of variant sabres used in the Bedouin sphere, but the scabbard rings were the first clue.
Even more confusing, while this resembles a shashka 'gurda' style blade, which were copied from European forms, it seems more likely Caucasian,although lack of markings seems unusual.
I had suggested a Khevsur sword, which were often roughly furbished by native artisans, but these sabres typically were mounted in regular edge down fashion.

The scabbard throat has the stylized device known by the Arabian term 'aghrab' (=scorpion) and served as an apotropaic in the folk religion as protection against the evil eye. These, as noted, are regularly found on the scabbard throats of the Hadrahmauti sa'ifs which were also used in Yemen. These silvered scabbards, according to Elgood ("Arabian Arms and Armour") were typically produced in Hyderabad, India for export.

The scabbard, as mounted with rings at convex or blade edge upward means that the scabbard was worn with that 'aghrab' inward and non visible. Also, the decorative carrying ring bosses also faced inward. More puzzling is the center section, with crudely fashioned geometrics as would often be seen on the obverse (non visible) side of the scabbard.
Caucasian scabbards are typically decorated on the visible side, and quite plain on the inside.

The hilt, as noted, is intended to approximate the beautiful ivory and silver hilts of the Persian shamshir, the most desirable in the Dar al Islam, however the pommel cap, though beautiful silver, quite crudely done. The wire wrap at the neck, while sometimes seen on Persian shamshirs, is quite typical on Arab, Central Asian and Indian versions of shamshir. It does seem also a Caucasian affectation on some Khevsur examples.

While I cannot place for sure, the motif en cartouche on the scabbard panels seems Caucasian, the bird being one figure that seems to stand out.

I think that this sabre seems rather simply furbished by a village smith, with components and influences at hand. With distinct Arabian characteristics in imitation of the favored Persian style, and features suggesting Caucasian influence and last, the curious positioning of the carry rings suggesting Russian fashion......I think the closest we will come to final answer will be somewhere in the Ottoman sphere.

While admittedly 'speculation by the numbers' , these observations only present possibilities by recognizing these particular characteristics.
When trying to identify the many weapon form anomolies produced in the ethnographic world, we can often only recognize certain features and components that appear in the weapon. Without key markings or provenance, any accurate assessment must remain speculation, with plausible explanations.

Its still fun to make educated guesses!! and this sabre remains a beautiful example whose enigma makes its even all the more attractive.

All tne very best,
Jim

ariel · 25th May 2009, 11:07 PM

IMHO, there is not a trace of Caucasian influence: purely Arabian.
The blade with 3 narrow and very "mechanical" fullers looks , if anything, trade Syrian or N. African ( the worst, Heavens forbid, is a modern Georgian arts and crafts design). The silverwork is NOT Caucasian at all. The handle of Georgian swords widens toward crossguard, and Khevsurian swords have flat brass ( or, if expensive, silver) rings, just like the scabbard.
Look here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10110
My guess, the fittings were reassembled: the middle section of the scabbard covering is a primitive replacement. At that time, the adjacent suspension plates were put upside down.

24th May 2009, 11:14 PM	#1
Iliad Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 187	Is this Indo-Persian? Hi all, this is a recent purchase..........as you all know by now, I buy edged weapons because they look pretty, and then wonder what they are! The back edge for about 6 inches back from the tip is quite sharp; there are no markings at all on the blade; the silver scabbard has been mended in the centre section , with an inferior metal (it has a greenish tinge, so maybe some copper in there); the handgrip has panels of what I think is ivory. I took the sword to a silversmith and he tested the metal and confirmed that it is silver. Solid silver scabbard and silver on the grip indicates (to me anyway) that it must have been owned by someone of status. The ivory(?) panels are dark on one side of the grip and light on the other, and I am told that ivory exposed to the light remains light in color and ivory kept in the dark turns yellowish, hence my thought of ivory rather than bone or other. All comments welcome, and thank you in advance. Brian Attached Images

24th May 2009, 11:20 PM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,617	Brian, This sword is somewhere from the Arab peninsula, or maybe Syrian, based on the hilt shape and the decoration on the scabbard. To me the hlit looks like bone. Nice sword. Teodor

25th May 2009, 03:09 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	It was supposed to be worn edge down. It does not look like a katana or a shashka:-)

25th May 2009, 03:16 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,928	Absolutely phenomenal Brian!!While Teodor is right, this does have initial appearance of Arab sabres and resemblance to the 'Baddawi' style hilts on many of them. The scabbard resembles those on the sa'if of Hadrahmaut and Yemen, however the carrying rings are not in the normal baldric style. This scabbard has the carrying rings on the convex side, with blade worn edge up, in the style of the shashka. The right angled pommel on the hilt, Persian style crossguard, scabbard of noted Hadhramauti style (these are known to have been produced in Hyderbad, India) and triple fullered trade blade strongly suggest this is a Caucasian sabre, presumably Georgian and possibly even a Khevsur weapon. With trade contacts with India, the features on the scabbard (the aghrab device on scabbard throat) and the wire wrap at grip neck (seen on Persian and Arab sabres, but some shashir styles in India also), these influences reached Caucasian craftsmen as well. There are of course certain complexities in the elements of the sabre overall, but I would think this is a very interesting sabre of these Caucasian regions. Further research may reveal more, but from first glance this is my opinion. All very best regards, Jim

25th May 2009, 06:40 PM	#6
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,617	Jim, I completely missed the upside down suspension. I was wondering, could it be a blade mounted in Arabia for one of the Caucasian immigrants there, rather than arab style decoration making its way to the Caucasus? Teodor

25th May 2009, 09:44 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,928	Hi Teodor, To be honest, I missed it too as I was first looking at this, but something seemed amiss, and finally...bonk! there it was. This piece has all the indicators that it may be one of the multitudes of variant sabres used in the Bedouin sphere, but the scabbard rings were the first clue. Even more confusing, while this resembles a shashka 'gurda' style blade, which were copied from European forms, it seems more likely Caucasian,although lack of markings seems unusual. I had suggested a Khevsur sword, which were often roughly furbished by native artisans, but these sabres typically were mounted in regular edge down fashion. The scabbard throat has the stylized device known by the Arabian term 'aghrab' (=scorpion) and served as an apotropaic in the folk religion as protection against the evil eye. These, as noted, are regularly found on the scabbard throats of the Hadrahmauti sa'ifs which were also used in Yemen. These silvered scabbards, according to Elgood ("Arabian Arms and Armour") were typically produced in Hyderabad, India for export. The scabbard, as mounted with rings at convex or blade edge upward means that the scabbard was worn with that 'aghrab' inward and non visible. Also, the decorative carrying ring bosses also faced inward. More puzzling is the center section, with crudely fashioned geometrics as would often be seen on the obverse (non visible) side of the scabbard. Caucasian scabbards are typically decorated on the visible side, and quite plain on the inside. The hilt, as noted, is intended to approximate the beautiful ivory and silver hilts of the Persian shamshir, the most desirable in the Dar al Islam, however the pommel cap, though beautiful silver, quite crudely done. The wire wrap at the neck, while sometimes seen on Persian shamshirs, is quite typical on Arab, Central Asian and Indian versions of shamshir. It does seem also a Caucasian affectation on some Khevsur examples. While I cannot place for sure, the motif en cartouche on the scabbard panels seems Caucasian, the bird being one figure that seems to stand out. I think that this sabre seems rather simply furbished by a village smith, with components and influences at hand. With distinct Arabian characteristics in imitation of the favored Persian style, and features suggesting Caucasian influence and last, the curious positioning of the carry rings suggesting Russian fashion......I think the closest we will come to final answer will be somewhere in the Ottoman sphere. While admittedly 'speculation by the numbers' , these observations only present possibilities by recognizing these particular characteristics. When trying to identify the many weapon form anomolies produced in the ethnographic world, we can often only recognize certain features and components that appear in the weapon. Without key markings or provenance, any accurate assessment must remain speculation, with plausible explanations. Its still fun to make educated guesses!! and this sabre remains a beautiful example whose enigma makes its even all the more attractive. All tne very best, Jim

25th May 2009, 11:07 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	IMHO, there is not a trace of Caucasian influence: purely Arabian. The blade with 3 narrow and very "mechanical" fullers looks , if anything, trade Syrian or N. African ( the worst, Heavens forbid, is a modern Georgian arts and crafts design). The silverwork is NOT Caucasian at all. The handle of Georgian swords widens toward crossguard, and Khevsurian swords have flat brass ( or, if expensive, silver) rings, just like the scabbard. Look here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10110 My guess, the fittings were reassembled: the middle section of the scabbard covering is a primitive replacement. At that time, the adjacent suspension plates were put upside down.