French mameluke? first batch of images

celtan · 30th October 2008, 11:02 PM

Hi, it's me again...!

I have owned a rather interesting french sword for many years, but all the while, everyone I have asked about it, claims it "doesn't exist".

And yet, the blade seems to thinks otherwise, and refuses to dissappear as any civilized figment should. Consequently, I think its real.

I'm even posting some pictures of my "imagination's figment". If you can see her too, perhaps you can help me ID same?

Data: poincon on ricasso. Inscribed in spine" Manufacture Real. de Chatetllereault, January 18x6". Can't figure out whether x is 2 or 4.

Obviously, a scythe like mameluke blade of sorts. But id doesn't even appear on books...

Best

M

celtan · 30th October 2008, 11:04 PM

2nd batch of images

Hi, it's me again...!
I have owned a rather interesting french sword for many years, but all the while, everyone I have asked about it, claims it "doesn't exist".
And yet, the blade seems to thinks otherwise, and refuses to dissappear as any civilized figment should. Consequently, I think its real.
I'm even posting some pictures of my "imagination's figment". If you can see her too, perhaps you can help me ID same?
Data: poincon on ricasso. Inscribed in spine" Manufacture Real. de Chatetllereault, January 18x6". Can't figure out whether x is 2 or 4.
Obviously, a scythe like mameluke blade of sorts. But id doesn't even appear on books...
Best
M

fernando · 31st October 2008, 12:49 AM

Hi Manolo,
within my ignorance:
The date looks like 1846.
The hilt looks like that of the 1822 cavalry sabre, isn't that so?
I am sure the best solution for these riddles with French swords is Jean Bick
jeanbck@hotmail.com
He is a nice guy; has just identified a sword for me, which was a bit tricky.
But let me tell you; tricky are also these shady overdimensioned pictures you post

Con mucho cariño.
Fernando

celtan · 31st October 2008, 01:22 AM

Howdy 'Nando,

Agree with you on both counts. Sorry about the giant pics. They are just a link to the image at PB. I'm not truly bombing the forum with large files...

Did you see my post on the french? court sword?

Apertas,
Manolo

BTW, you have a very interesting collection, from all the postings of yours I have seen . When did you start collecting? Were you in your terrible twos when you grab your first espada?

: )

celtan · 31st October 2008, 01:33 AM

Howdy 'Nando and Jim,

I already tried Jean Binck, last time I asked him about it he didn't know. But he liked my suggestion that the former owner had removed the blade's tip, perhaps after stabbing his own buttocks in the upward swing once too many.

The russians were keen on using this shape of blade also, as well as the persian shamshirs.

Manolo

Check this pics from a british 18th C blade...

Jim McDougall · 31st October 2008, 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

Howdy 'Nando and Jim,

I already tried Jean Binck, last time I asked him about it he didn't know. But he liked my suggestion that the former owner had removed the blade's tip, perhaps after stabbing his own buttocks in the upward swing once too many.

The russians were keen on using this shape of blade also, as well as the persian shamshirs.

Manolo

Check this pics from a british 18th C blade...

Wow! Thats a nice one too Manolo! This is a 'spadroon' type hilt (a very confusing term usually applied to straight blade sabres for infantry officers about 1780 with these neoclassic type hilts) which is mounted with a M1796 light cavalry 'hatchet point' sabre blade (but much more parabolic than standard). I have often wondered if there was some unofficial move for British officers putting these sabre blades on the established hilts which usually had straight blades.
I once had one of these c.1780 hilts which should have had the usual straight cavalry blade of 1780's (heavy cavalry) and had a curved sabre blade on it.

I have seen Scottish basket hilts mounted with M1788 light cavalry blades as well, so it would seem that officers may well have had thier armourers mount these curved blades at thier whim, which was pretty standard in those rather flamboyant times.

You're right, Russian officers too would often yield to fashion oriented exuberance in weapons, and the Persian shamshir was a weapon admired by anyone who had exposure to them.

The tip on your sabre seems 'rebated' or rounded, which is a standard alteration intended to widen the end of the blade for slashing cuts. This is often seen on Omani kattara and Tuareg takouba which characteristically have these points.

It seems to me both you and 'Nando have got amazing collections, and we're lucky to have you guys sharing things here. Thank you so much!!

All the best,
Jim

fernando · 31st October 2008, 07:52 PM

Hi 'Manolete'

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

Howdy 'Nando,)

Now your'e getting close

. One or two people call me Nando, a short name (also) practised over here. When i was young and my mother and sisters wanted to aliciate me to execute some task of their interest, they would even call me Nandinho

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

Did you see my post on the french? court sword?)

Naturaly i did. I have no idea of what it is; but i have a firm idea that the scene on the guard is identifiable ... just needing somebody familiar with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

When did you start collecting? Were you in your terrible twos when you grab your first espada? : )

I was already in my fourties when i decided to keep my first sword and start collecting. I don't have that many things ... just stretch them to look like i have a serious collection

.

BTW, if you keep thinking this piece is not existable in your collection, you just have to call me for business

Fernando

celtan · 31st October 2008, 08:30 PM

Nando, Nandiño, Nandín, Nandito, Nandy, Fernan, all spanish-galician variations of Fernando.

Manuel: Manolo, Manolete, Nolo, Manu.

Drat, There are so many more for yours than for mine.

Then Jaime: Jim. : ) .

OTOH, James has so many more variations across cultures: Jacob, George, Jacques, Yago, Iago, Giacomo...

Jim McDougall · 31st October 2008, 01:22 AM

I agree with Fernando, there are few authorities on European military swords, particularly French, with the expertise of Jean Binck. He has written many outstanding articles on them over many years, and I have always been most impressed by his willingness to offer help with the many queries he must get.

I also agree this hilt would be the M1822 French hilt, which saw service for the better part of the 19th century, and became the model for the famed U.S. cavalry M1840 ('the old wristbreaker').

What is the anomaly is this dramatically curved (fully parabolic) blade, and the colorful reference to the Mamluks, who of course did use curved sabres that influenced French, British and American military swords, however typically in the hilt, not particularly the blade.
It is worthy of note that the early years of the 19th century reflected considerable controversy, debate and innovation concerning weapons technology with sword blades. The British had established thier first official regulation sword patterns with the light cavalry M1796 sabre, derived from European hussar forms with stirrup hilt. In establishing the most suitable blade form, other blade forms with yelman were considered as seen on some tulwars and Turkish kilij, as well as the highly curved parabolic shamshir type blades, and Hungarian sabre blades.

I have seen British cavalry sabres with equally parabolic blades as this French example that date about 1800, and with pipeback blade. The well known Mamluk sabre of this period is known for the curved blade which required cut out at back of scabbard to allow the sword to be withdrawn.

In the United States, the Virginia Manufactory of Arms, from 1808-1820, produced its First and Second model cavalry sabres with extremely curved blades like this that were incredibly long. These were still on hand at the outbreak of the Civil War, and Confederate cavalry 'reduced' ! the blades to 35" length for manageability.

This French sword is clearly an anomaly, and would not appear in reference books regularly available as it may have been either a prototype or a custom order by an officer. If the date is correct as 1846, the Manufacture de Chatellerault was effectively commercial enterprise, and may well have entertained such orders.

In any case, this is a most unusual example of a French cavalry sabre, M1822, which clearly does exist, and reflects the profound influence of Oriental weaponry in the French military. They did adopt colorful units of Mamluk and Zouave type, and perhaps this sabre might have been to an officer of one of them.

Best regards,
Jim

30th October 2008, 11:02 PM	#1
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	French mameluke? first batch of images Hi, it's me again...! I have owned a rather interesting french sword for many years, but all the while, everyone I have asked about it, claims it "doesn't exist". And yet, the blade seems to thinks otherwise, and refuses to dissappear as any civilized figment should. Consequently, I think its real. I'm even posting some pictures of my "imagination's figment". If you can see her too, perhaps you can help me ID same? Data: poincon on ricasso. Inscribed in spine" Manufacture Real. de Chatetllereault, January 18x6". Can't figure out whether x is 2 or 4. Obviously, a scythe like mameluke blade of sorts. But id doesn't even appear on books... Best M

31st October 2008, 01:33 AM	#5
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Howdy 'Nando and Jim, I already tried Jean Binck, last time I asked him about it he didn't know. But he liked my suggestion that the former owner had removed the blade's tip, perhaps after stabbing his own buttocks in the upward swing once too many. The russians were keen on using this shape of blade also, as well as the persian shamshirs. Manolo Check this pics from a british 18th C blade... Attached Images

30th October 2008, 11:04 PM	#2
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	2nd batch of images Hi, it's me again...! I have owned a rather interesting french sword for many years, but all the while, everyone I have asked about it, claims it "doesn't exist". And yet, the blade seems to thinks otherwise, and refuses to dissappear as any civilized figment should. Consequently, I think its real. I'm even posting some pictures of my "imagination's figment". If you can see her too, perhaps you can help me ID same? Data: poincon on ricasso. Inscribed in spine" Manufacture Real. de Chatetllereault, January 18x6". Can't figure out whether x is 2 or 4. Obviously, a scythe like mameluke blade of sorts. But id doesn't even appear on books... Best M

31st October 2008, 12:49 AM	#3
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,669	Hi Manolo, within my ignorance: The date looks like 1846. The hilt looks like that of the 1822 cavalry sabre, isn't that so? I am sure the best solution for these riddles with French swords is Jean Bick jeanbck@hotmail.com He is a nice guy; has just identified a sword for me, which was a bit tricky. But let me tell you; tricky are also these shady overdimensioned pictures you post Con mucho cariño. Fernando

31st October 2008, 01:22 AM	#4
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Howdy 'Nando, Agree with you on both counts. Sorry about the giant pics. They are just a link to the image at PB. I'm not truly bombing the forum with large files... Did you see my post on the french? court sword? Apertas, Manolo BTW, you have a very interesting collection, from all the postings of yours I have seen . When did you start collecting? Were you in your terrible twos when you grab your first espada? : )

31st October 2008, 08:30 PM	#8
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Nando, Nandiño, Nandín, Nandito, Nandy, Fernan, all spanish-galician variations of Fernando. Manuel: Manolo, Manolete, Nolo, Manu. Drat, There are so many more for yours than for mine. Then Jaime: Jim. : ) . OTOH, James has so many more variations across cultures: Jacob, George, Jacques, Yago, Iago, Giacomo...

31st October 2008, 01:22 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,819	I agree with Fernando, there are few authorities on European military swords, particularly French, with the expertise of Jean Binck. He has written many outstanding articles on them over many years, and I have always been most impressed by his willingness to offer help with the many queries he must get. I also agree this hilt would be the M1822 French hilt, which saw service for the better part of the 19th century, and became the model for the famed U.S. cavalry M1840 ('the old wristbreaker'). What is the anomaly is this dramatically curved (fully parabolic) blade, and the colorful reference to the Mamluks, who of course did use curved sabres that influenced French, British and American military swords, however typically in the hilt, not particularly the blade. It is worthy of note that the early years of the 19th century reflected considerable controversy, debate and innovation concerning weapons technology with sword blades. The British had established thier first official regulation sword patterns with the light cavalry M1796 sabre, derived from European hussar forms with stirrup hilt. In establishing the most suitable blade form, other blade forms with yelman were considered as seen on some tulwars and Turkish kilij, as well as the highly curved parabolic shamshir type blades, and Hungarian sabre blades. I have seen British cavalry sabres with equally parabolic blades as this French example that date about 1800, and with pipeback blade. The well known Mamluk sabre of this period is known for the curved blade which required cut out at back of scabbard to allow the sword to be withdrawn. In the United States, the Virginia Manufactory of Arms, from 1808-1820, produced its First and Second model cavalry sabres with extremely curved blades like this that were incredibly long. These were still on hand at the outbreak of the Civil War, and Confederate cavalry 'reduced' ! the blades to 35" length for manageability. This French sword is clearly an anomaly, and would not appear in reference books regularly available as it may have been either a prototype or a custom order by an officer. If the date is correct as 1846, the Manufacture de Chatellerault was effectively commercial enterprise, and may well have entertained such orders. In any case, this is a most unusual example of a French cavalry sabre, M1822, which clearly does exist, and reflects the profound influence of Oriental weaponry in the French military. They did adopt colorful units of Mamluk and Zouave type, and perhaps this sabre might have been to an officer of one of them. Best regards, Jim