Kindjal

[The Double D]

What makes a knife a kindjal?

Where do these knives originate?

What features make one kindjal more desirable than another? Do these features date a kindjal and how?

How are kindjals made?

[ausjulius]

Originally Posted by The Double D

What makes a knife a kindjal?

Where do these knives originate?

What features make one kindjal more desirable than another? Do these features date a kindjal and how?

How are kindjals made?

ok,,
questions ,,

1, A kindjal is a short sword native to the caucasus,, not a knife, later types would be classed as daggers due to the infantile handles and very pointy blades, these are decorative kindjals,, and were not often intended to be used,, other than as an orniment.. many kindjals , aspecialy most russian ones are of the dagger type,, and highly decorated,
...what makes a kindjal,, ok , there s several points that make them satndour, one is theyer double edged,, and normaly the blade is symeterican , also the handle forms the gard and the handle will only be afewmm wider than the blade,, or not wider atall,
the handle is rivited on with large headed rivites , the heads only show on the side facing away from the wearer..
there is a small tab on one side of the sheath for a loop for the belt, the kindjal is normaly worn stuch into a sash or belt,,
there is normal a metal tip with a point on it at the end of the sheath , and the sheath normaly has also a metal throat,, the loop retainer is many times solidered to the meatl throat,

the blade is normaly borad, and has grooves in it , many times the grooves are different on the different sides of the blade, of they are offset ,
the handle has a distinck shape , like that of a minerett on a mosque,,
the handle normal has only two rivets,
they can be big,, or small,, mostly they come in a size of about 45-50cms in blade length,,


2
the originate in the caucasus,,
are are used by all caucasus people ,however i would say there hom would be with the north caucasus people , just puerly because it is a fixed part of there national costume,
the circassians , aydge,, and other north caucascians intorduced these weapons to the russians through contact wiht the cossaks,, they were further populised by the dagestan and chachnya campaigns ,, in the 1800s aspecialy twith long lasting conflict between the avar antional leather imam shamil , as large amounts of the weaponry were purchased ,or caputuered , and they became popular items with the russian soliders serving in the campaing , ,
the russians produced several forms of kindjal in zlatoust,, the russian solingen , mostly of the decorative form ,, with the 3 finger grip..


3 , ok, well that easy,, if its in good condition and has got lots of silver and gold on it then its worth more,,
there is bulat and wootz steel kindjals,, there is damascus steel kindjals,, there is just plain old carbon steel kindjals,,
ones with mamouth ivory handnles, silver fittings, gold inlay,, jewls,, amber and coral,, many things mostly the quality determins the price,, and the blade mateiral , bulat would greatly increace the value of a otherwise norlam looking kindjal.



ok , they are made the same way as other knives and swords,
id upload some pice of how we make them but,, 1 i cant find my charger for my camera.. and this is dagestan , so its going to be fun to get a new one , 2.. its the week end ,
basicly we forge the blades,, or for the ones in stainless steel we grind them , then the etch them and put the handles on and make the sheath ,
and thats it,

some extra infor , some kindjals may also come with a small knif ein the shetha , placed in the back of the scabard, it is like a small steak knife, .
this is aspecialy common in dagestan ,
some kindjals are very crazy , ive seen ones with saws on the edges or scoloped edged like a bread knife,,
ther is also several frorms of curved kindjals, but they are another thing ,
there is many styles of appling the handle,, and the rivets are only one part, many kindjals also have a metal part to the hanlde and this is attached in any number of odd ways..
on the older kindjals ther blade is wide ofr hackinf and the tip of the sword the like a 4 sided sipke for stabbing through chain mail ,, the russiansnever made kindjals as swords ,, but only as decorations that could be used as daggers,,
later in the north cacasus the kinjals became smaller aspecial in the hanlde as ther were no longer used,, as the pistol had killed bother amour and kindjal skrimishes,, which involved a small sheail kindjal and a mail coat,, these were fought on foot,
with a colt pistol or a belgina copy anyway you could just shoot the guy in the face,, and that was it,,


... sorry we haven very good pics on our web but you can see some here,, sorry very few, .. we make much more but you see how much stuff our web has.
www.kizlyar.ru/eng ..
mostly tourist kindjals are shown... they neew no permit in russia to own ,
there is lots of other makers in dagestan , but none other have websites...
firms in zlatoust make kinjals also , www.zok.ru www.lik.ru www.zlatoust-air.ru ther eis many others ,, but mostly the good kindjals are mad ein dagestan,, the georgian ones are mostly bad tourist items these days.. as with azirbijan ,

[Rivkin]

I would say circassians and adighe is the same thing; concerning north vs. south, it is like "whose dance is lezginka" - very hard to understand whether choh was earlier than cherkeska or vice versa, just like it is very hard to understand whose version of lezginka was the first one.

Concerning kindjal as being of a purely caucasian origin, I recently started to doubt it. While we clearly see similar daggers in the late Iron ages, I have failed to find anything like a typical kindjal among 10th-14th century weapons of whether north or southern caucasus. It is damn strange that to my knowledge all of the classical caucasian kindjals are of a later period.

For the references for 10-14th centuries weapons I would refer to:

David Nicolle "arms and armour of the crusading era", volume II for Georgia/Armenia and works of V.N. Kaminsky for northern Caucasus. For traditional northern caucasian dress of the period I would refer to the famous article in the journal of metropolitan museum, I think it is called "analysis of a 9th century costume from northern caucasus". No sign of kindjals or cherkeska there ( what whould they use gazyris for in 9th century ?). Looks like a chalat.

And finally - did anyone see the book "Waffen der Bronzezeit aus Ost-Georgien." by Picchelauri ? I heard it is a fantastic accound of arms and armour of earlier Colchi and late Kura-Arax and kurgan cultures.

[The Double D]

So to recap what you gentlemen have said.

The kindjal is a short sword or dagger. The Short Sword being the original form.

It is assumed to have originated in the Caucasus. But there may be some evidence that questions that.

The blade is broad symmetrical and pointed and will have fullers.

The hilt or handle is distinct in having the shape of a minaret and will not be wider that the blade. There will be to raised rivets heads on one side of the handle.

The sheath will have a loop for belt, metal throat and pointed tip.

How's that?

From viewing the linked websites and looking at EBay, it appears to me the the kindjal has evolved from an ethnographic weapon to an ethnographic weapon that is an artwork.

Is there such a thing as a functional or working kindjal versus a kindjal that is just art? If there is such a thing, how do you distingush a working kindjal from an artwork.

[ausjulius]

Originally Posted by The Double D

So to recap what you gentlemen have said.

The kindjal is a short sword or dagger. The Short Sword being the original form.

It is assumed to have originated in the Caucasus. But there may be some evidence that questions that.

The blade is broad symmetrical and pointed and will have fullers.

The hilt or handle is distinct in having the shape of a minaret and will not be wider that the blade. There will be to raised rivets heads on one side of the handle.

The sheath will have a loop for belt, metal throat and pointed tip.

How's that?

From viewing the linked websites and looking at EBay, it appears to me the the kindjal has evolved from an ethnographic weapon to an ethnographic weapon that is an artwork.

Is there such a thing as a functional or working kindjal versus a kindjal that is just art? If there is such a thing, how do you distingush a working kindjal from an artwork.

the dress kindjals have small handles , for about 3 fingers,, and a long pointed blade,, they are for dress and as use as daggers, ive never seen one of these as a "working" kindjal,, theyer always decorated,, as thats what they were...
the working kindjals will normaly have a proper sized handel , and the fittings would be only plane metal , and the blade long enougth and broad enougth to be used for hacking aswell as stabbing,, normaly a one peice buffalo horn or wood handle will be used, and the sheath will be leather couvered wood,,
the blades on the useing kindjals normaly are about 50 cms or bigger,

[Rivkin]

"kindjal-tricks" are surprisingly essentially the same among south and north caucasians. I would guess there are a few "weird" styles that are different (like blind fight in the south), but the basic styles are the same.
You are completely right that no one really looked into it; if its northern iran (i.e. turkish tribes of Azerbaijan), I would see a problem with distinguishing their influence from the influence of other turkoman, timurid etc tribes. Arab influence was strong in Georgia in 7th-9th centuries, but slowly died out since. The problem essentially that besides territories that georgraphically surround Caucasus (Lazika, Azerbaijan, Balkans) no one has this weapon.

[ausjulius]

Originally Posted by Rivkin

"kindjal-tricks" are surprisingly essentially the same among south and north caucasians. I would guess there are a few "weird" styles that are different (like blind fight in the south), but the basic styles are the same.
You are completely right that no one really looked into it; if its northern iran (i.e. turkish tribes of Azerbaijan), I would see a problem with distinguishing their influence from the influence of other turkoman, timurid etc tribes. Arab influence was strong in Georgia in 7th-9th centuries, but slowly died out since. The problem essentially that besides territories that georgraphically surround Caucasus (Lazika, Azerbaijan, Balkans) no one has this weapon.

you are correct with the kindjal and sword tricks being spread around the caucasus , however they and the now caucascian costume originate in the northwest caucasus , in the steppe areas,, and were spread by these folks who worked as mercinaries in the other states , aswell as being used as janissaries by the turks and such , the style seems to have spread quite rapidly , because the circassian culture spread these elerments to quite some areas , and the cossaks spead them also ,
the costumes and horse tricks are not mountian folks traditions,, but have been adopted from influence,

[ausjulius]

Hi , rivkin ,
the kindjal and the shashka are both modern weaponry,
they have not exisited long , and originaly evolved at the same time of the intorduction of firearms,,
the shashka is only 300 years old at the most.. and the kindjal not more,,
in dagestan before the introduction of the palash and shamshir type of swords the dagestan folds used a short one handed sword,, 10th 11th ceutuaries and such , the north caucascians living more on the open steppe always had some nomad type swords, such as the chechens,, and the circassians, sabers of various forms ,, depending on who was invading at the time ,
i think eairler in history they used the short one handed swords as the dagestani groups,,

the shashka evouled in the area around the aydge as they prefered to be very acrobatic with the swords and to perform many tricks to display there horse riding skills,, so the basicly chopped the guards off the swords,, ,, the handle form comes ot for the sabers of the time , but form a kard knife,,
at this time the cossaks were still using a tatar style sword,, suted for fighting against armoued opponents,,, ,, although mostly the western cossaks had discarded amour by this time , there costumes were still more mongolian than caucascian,, but as military contact increased with the caucascians they assumed the circassian costume and weaponry,, you see older pictures of the cossaks and they would appear to be men dressed and armed almost as mongols,, at this time there main opponent was either monols , tatars or the nogai/kipchak people who the were driving out form the southern steppe or assimilating into there hostes... i think that the same happened wiht the causasus,, also the cassaks were many times andits , so wat they could steal they didnt buy and if they won a battel and had a lot of new clothes and swords,, well then theyed use them ,
lezginka is the dance of the lezgins :P... no i thin with lezginka there is no way to know who it belongs to,, its been here for 1000snds of yers, like throat singing,, the mongols and turkic folks all do it but who invented it ... well its been around to long


with the kindjal,, ok , again it is a new weapon , and it is associated with the acrobatic riding or the north caucascians , aspecialy yhte flat form and the firm insertion into te belt , as oppose to a hanger of sorts,, the handle shape allows a high degree of dexterity when performing hand tricks with the weapon , and it can be spun through the fingers and twirled and suc , much more than could be done with a card or a european dagger or another form of short sword,, ...
the later kindjals that the cossaks encountered dasicly had evoulved as trick items and orniments havinf a handle that could fit between the fingers and be twirled and skipped on the fingers and such , aswel as being comfortable when trick riding,, , it could also be used to stabb wiiht with a good leathel effect if needed , ..
i thin the eairlier kindjals came form northen iran,,
just my opinion , either that or the north of the caucasus,,, if they cam form the north of the caucasus then they were very unpopular for a very ong time,, one idea is they came from some sort of leg sword that was used by the sythians and alans and mongola and such ushaly stuck in the arrow quiver or tied on the leg,, mostly for stabbing,,
the iran idea it it was form the roman swords :P or later fomrs like it form the arabs,, .. neither has a great deal of proof behind it,, mainly due to the fact that nobody have ever looked in great detial into it............

[DaveA]

Here is a previous thread with some wonderful pictures illustrating the kinjal and shashka.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=1061#poststop

[ariel]

Mech is a slavic word for a straight double-edged sword.
There is an equivalent to the turkish "mech" ,i.e. narrow-bladed, edge-less and very long blade suitable only for stabbing weapon, i.e. Eastern European sword called Konchar ( various writing). Amusingly, this word came from turkic languages ( handzhar is a close relative).

Thus, both the Ottomans and the Slavs used the same weapon, but each called it in the opposite language: Turks took the Slavc term, and the Slavs Turkish.
Fair swap :-)