North African Rifle ID Help Please

Clubs & Arrows · 7th September 2009, 08:20 AM

Hello.
I picked up a pair of rifles and I was wondering if anyone can help me with the markings chiseled into the metalwork. The guns appear to be Moroccan, but I'm not sure. Any help would be appreciated as far as origin or age. They are each about 6 feet long. One is in pretty sad shape, but the other looks nice to me aside from some cracks & chips in the wood. The close-ups are of the better rifle. The butt appears to be horn, wood, and a large piece of ivory. Any help with the markings would be appreciated.

Thanks for any help.

Best regards,
Joe

trenchwarfare · 8th September 2009, 03:49 AM

Very nice workmanship. Not sure of their true name, but I have heard these referred to as a "Kabayle". Lock is of the snaphaunce type. Dating is difficult on any of these "camel guns". Could be as late as mid 20th century. But, I'd say early 19th century, or older. But that's just a guess. These are a sideline collection for me. But, sometimes, I wonder...

kahnjar1 · 8th September 2009, 05:46 AM

In his book Islamic Arms, Tirri classifies this particular stock shape as BERBER and from Algeria. Similar, but not quite the same stock shape as Kabyle. If you have the book refer page 36.
Two very nice pieces. Congratulations.
Regards Stuart

BBJW · 8th September 2009, 05:57 AM

Very nice looking pieces. Almost impossible to date is right. Would love to have one to hang on the wall. I missed a similar piece going out the door of a gunshow last weekend. PM me if you have any interest in selling one. Are those considered "assault rifles" in the "Peoples Republik of Kalifornia" now?

Cheers
bbjw

Martin Lubojacky · 8th September 2009, 10:35 AM

Hello, I don´t cast dubt on Algeria and Kabylia, but you can also commonly find this type (shape) through all south mediterranian coast - up to Cyrenaika, for instance in Tunisia and western Libya.

Martin

Dom · 8th September 2009, 02:58 PM

Hi everybody

I will be more circumspect,
Berber ... yes, most probably, from Morocco, called Moukalah

but Kabyle ... I doubt

the 2 long rifles have their flintlock "à Miquelet"
the heel is more certainly made with camel bones than ivory.
they look as mid 19th century

the translation for the sentence it's not easy,
part is unreadable, but related with religion
- LELLAH ; either, FOR THE GOD
- ALLAH SHARA ; either, DIVINE LAW

à +

Dom

7th September 2009, 08:20 AM	#1
Clubs & Arrows Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: San Gabriel Foothills, Southern California Posts: 94	North African Rifle ID Help Please Hello. I picked up a pair of rifles and I was wondering if anyone can help me with the markings chiseled into the metalwork. The guns appear to be Moroccan, but I'm not sure. Any help would be appreciated as far as origin or age. They are each about 6 feet long. One is in pretty sad shape, but the other looks nice to me aside from some cracks & chips in the wood. The close-ups are of the better rifle. The butt appears to be horn, wood, and a large piece of ivory. Any help with the markings would be appreciated. Thanks for any help. Best regards, Joe Attached Images Last edited by Clubs & Arrows; 7th September 2009 at 11:08 PM.

8th September 2009, 02:58 PM	#6
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	Hi everybody I will be more circumspect, Berber ... yes, most probably, from Morocco, called Moukalah but Kabyle ... I doubt the 2 long rifles have their flintlock "à Miquelet" the heel is more certainly made with camel bones than ivory. they look as mid 19th century the translation for the sentence it's not easy, part is unreadable, but related with religion - LELLAH ; either, FOR THE GOD - ALLAH SHARA ; either, DIVINE LAW à + Dom Attached Images

8th September 2009, 03:49 AM	#2
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	Very nice workmanship. Not sure of their true name, but I have heard these referred to as a "Kabayle". Lock is of the snaphaunce type. Dating is difficult on any of these "camel guns". Could be as late as mid 20th century. But, I'd say early 19th century, or older. But that's just a guess. These are a sideline collection for me. But, sometimes, I wonder...

8th September 2009, 05:46 AM	#3
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	In his book Islamic Arms, Tirri classifies this particular stock shape as BERBER and from Algeria. Similar, but not quite the same stock shape as Kabyle. If you have the book refer page 36. Two very nice pieces. Congratulations. Regards Stuart

8th September 2009, 05:57 AM	#4
BBJW Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Idaho, USA Posts: 228	Very nice looking pieces. Almost impossible to date is right. Would love to have one to hang on the wall. I missed a similar piece going out the door of a gunshow last weekend. PM me if you have any interest in selling one. Are those considered "assault rifles" in the "Peoples Republik of Kalifornia" now? Cheers bbjw

8th September 2009, 10:35 AM	#5
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Hello, I don´t cast dubt on Algeria and Kabylia, but you can also commonly find this type (shape) through all south mediterranian coast - up to Cyrenaika, for instance in Tunisia and western Libya. Martin