big flissa for comment please

weapons 27 · 9th May 2015, 10:59 AM

could you give me your opinion on this flissa
I have never seen a flissa with this big Blade model...
It is 71cm long and blade at widest 5, 5cm, a piece of the handle is missing..
There are two coat of arms is a decoration, or a marking?
Thanks for your comments

Emanuel · 11th May 2015, 10:00 PM

Hello,

Finally a new flyssa on the forum

I have handled a number of flyssa and I do not know where this short beefy type fits in. I do not know if it's an older kind closer to a yataghan, or a later 19th century type made for the new colonial market. The "coat-of-arms" is new to me. It is not consistent with the classic geometric Kabyle decorative elements, and the brass decoration seems excessive. The "coat-of-arms" looks European inspired, with what looks like a fleur de lys. The cross-hatching on the blade looks crude and the handle doesn't look like it ever had brass covering.

I'm tending to a later 19th century date on this piece, possibly not produced by the Iflissen, who originally developed the flyssa.

Here is a group with a long flyssa also with 5-6cm wide blade. http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12938

And here is one that might be of the earliest kind http://vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.p...75&postcount=1 . Its construction is much closer to Anatolian Ottoman yataghan.

Regards,
Emanuel

Kubur · 11th May 2015, 10:28 PM

Hi
To my own knowledge and opinion, your flyssa is not so special.
You have two main types of long flyssa:
- the long "dart" one that can reaches up to 1m long
- the "yatagan" type, massive, between 50 to 80cm
Yours belongs to the second type.
Like Manuel I believe the second type was influenced by Ottoman yatagan.
Yours is really beautiful due to the decorations on the blade with large incised panels and cooper inlays. The medaillon is not a coat-of-arms. The handle is not really nice, a close photo will show us if the wooden grip was originally covered with cooper/bronze.
Best,
Kubur

weapons 27 · 12th May 2015, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi
To my own knowledge and opinion, your flyssa is not so special.
You have two main types of long flyssa:
- the long "dart" one that can reaches up to 1m long
- the "yatagan" type, massive, between 50 to 80cm
Yours belongs to the second type.
Like Manuel I believe the second type was influenced by Ottoman yatagan.
Yours is really beautiful due to the decorations on the blade with large incised panels and cooper inlays. The medaillon is not a coat-of-arms. The handle is not really nice, a close photo will show us if the wooden grip was originally covered with cooper/bronze.
Best,
Kubur

I do not think that it is been covered with brass, no visible mark
Although it lacks a piece of the handle
It is very heavy 850 grams

Jim McDougall · 12th May 2015, 09:37 PM

Interesting comments, and I think the term best describing these is probably 'unique', as while they typically are remarkably similar in their overall appearance, they are often deeply nuanced in many of the shapes, sizes and decorative devices .

Whenever I see a flyssa, quite honestly the first thing in my mind is Emanuel!! I think this man has studied these fascinating weapons far more than anyone else I have ever known. We've had great discussions here on these over many years.

The thing on flyssa is that they are actually a kind of traditional icon among these Berber tribes in these Algerian regions, and as I have understood serve as a kind of 'rite of passage' for young men. While the traditional motif of linear fibular triangles and other characteristic features seem to prevail in most cases, there are singular devices as seen here which seem to be more custom designed for individuals or perhaps groups. Indeed these are not 'heraldic' but I believe amuletic and in accord with the context of the traditional motif which is also talismanic.

While most of the tribes of the Iflyssen groups remained independent of the Ottoman rulers, they were deeply influenced by their weapons, and while the young men highly favored the yataghans, it seems that these 'unique' and now indigenous 'flyssa' were developed as local versions influenced by the earlier forms of yataghan.

The possibly earlier example flyssa linked by Emanuel is most interesting, and the linear motif along the back of the blade seems to relate perhaps to the Byzantine type motifs often seen in these cultures. It has been extremely difficult to establish chronology and origins of the flyssa, and as Emanuel has pointed out some time ago, they were in dramatic decline by the latter years of the 19th c.
I think the first recorded use of the word 'flyssa' was around 1827, and the earliest 'provenanced' example I have ever found was captured by the French Foreign Legion c. 1857 (?).

Thank you for sharing this very sturdy looking example Weapons27, and I hope there will be more discussion on these interesting swords here.

Emanuel · 17th June 2015, 09:06 PM

Thank you for your kind words Jim

I have you to thank for setting me on the flyssa path years ago

What's interesting about these thicker, shorter ones is that they've been popping up more often over the last few years. Perhaps because more people recognize them as flyssa, don't know.

Weapons27, some of these never had brass covering, as you can see by the missing tacks that would hold the brass sheets on the handle. You can really see the construction of the handle and the thick integral bolster / thin tang assembly. This kind of handle construction is weird.

Regards,
Emanuel

9th May 2015, 10:59 AM	#1
weapons 27 Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 462	big flissa for comment please could you give me your opinion on this flissa I have never seen a flissa with this big Blade model... It is 71cm long and blade at widest 5, 5cm, a piece of the handle is missing.. There are two coat of arms is a decoration, or a marking? Thanks for your comments Attached Images

11th May 2015, 10:00 PM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, Finally a new flyssa on the forum I have handled a number of flyssa and I do not know where this short beefy type fits in. I do not know if it's an older kind closer to a yataghan, or a later 19th century type made for the new colonial market. The "coat-of-arms" is new to me. It is not consistent with the classic geometric Kabyle decorative elements, and the brass decoration seems excessive. The "coat-of-arms" looks European inspired, with what looks like a fleur de lys. The cross-hatching on the blade looks crude and the handle doesn't look like it ever had brass covering. I'm tending to a later 19th century date on this piece, possibly not produced by the Iflissen, who originally developed the flyssa. Here is a group with a long flyssa also with 5-6cm wide blade. http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12938 And here is one that might be of the earliest kind http://vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.p...75&postcount=1 . Its construction is much closer to Anatolian Ottoman yataghan. Regards, Emanuel Last edited by Emanuel; 11th May 2015 at 10:15 PM.

11th May 2015, 10:28 PM	#3
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi To my own knowledge and opinion, your flyssa is not so special. You have two main types of long flyssa: - the long "dart" one that can reaches up to 1m long - the "yatagan" type, massive, between 50 to 80cm Yours belongs to the second type. Like Manuel I believe the second type was influenced by Ottoman yatagan. Yours is really beautiful due to the decorations on the blade with large incised panels and cooper inlays. The medaillon is not a coat-of-arms. The handle is not really nice, a close photo will show us if the wooden grip was originally covered with cooper/bronze. Best, Kubur

12th May 2015, 09:37 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Interesting comments, and I think the term best describing these is probably 'unique', as while they typically are remarkably similar in their overall appearance, they are often deeply nuanced in many of the shapes, sizes and decorative devices . Whenever I see a flyssa, quite honestly the first thing in my mind is Emanuel!! I think this man has studied these fascinating weapons far more than anyone else I have ever known. We've had great discussions here on these over many years. The thing on flyssa is that they are actually a kind of traditional icon among these Berber tribes in these Algerian regions, and as I have understood serve as a kind of 'rite of passage' for young men. While the traditional motif of linear fibular triangles and other characteristic features seem to prevail in most cases, there are singular devices as seen here which seem to be more custom designed for individuals or perhaps groups. Indeed these are not 'heraldic' but I believe amuletic and in accord with the context of the traditional motif which is also talismanic. While most of the tribes of the Iflyssen groups remained independent of the Ottoman rulers, they were deeply influenced by their weapons, and while the young men highly favored the yataghans, it seems that these 'unique' and now indigenous 'flyssa' were developed as local versions influenced by the earlier forms of yataghan. The possibly earlier example flyssa linked by Emanuel is most interesting, and the linear motif along the back of the blade seems to relate perhaps to the Byzantine type motifs often seen in these cultures. It has been extremely difficult to establish chronology and origins of the flyssa, and as Emanuel has pointed out some time ago, they were in dramatic decline by the latter years of the 19th c. I think the first recorded use of the word 'flyssa' was around 1827, and the earliest 'provenanced' example I have ever found was captured by the French Foreign Legion c. 1857 (?). Thank you for sharing this very sturdy looking example Weapons27, and I hope there will be more discussion on these interesting swords here.

17th June 2015, 09:06 PM	#6
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Thank you for your kind words Jim I have you to thank for setting me on the flyssa path years ago What's interesting about these thicker, shorter ones is that they've been popping up more often over the last few years. Perhaps because more people recognize them as flyssa, don't know. Weapons27, some of these never had brass covering, as you can see by the missing tacks that would hold the brass sheets on the handle. You can really see the construction of the handle and the thick integral bolster / thin tang assembly. This kind of handle construction is weird. Regards, Emanuel