T.ulwar and EIC

[Pukka Bundook]

I have been wondering Gents;

One sometimes runs accross old tulwars that have had the East India Company stamp put on them.
Can anyone enlighten me as to how they came to be marked in this manner?
Said marks would be prior to 1858, but that is all I know.
These swords appear to have been marked later on in their life by what I can see. (The marks sometimes appear fairly 'fresh' whereas the hilts may be otherwise very worn)

Any help in understanding this would be appreciated!

Richard.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Richard,
Its really good to see you posting!!! Its seems like a while since Ive seen you around.
Excellent question, and personally I used to always hope to find an EIC marked sword of any kind. There have been some good discussions recently on these markings which came up with a jezail RDG posted a while back, and it seems many of the locks on these turned up on these native guns put together in the Khyber regions.

As far as I have discovered, the only weapons ever marked with the EIC balemark were the gun locks usually on muskets, and on the bayonets in 18th century to the early years of the 19th. The balemark was replaced about 1807 or so by the rampant lion, though there may have been some use of the flaunched version in certain regions. Again, I am not aware of any such use on swords, either British or native.

I would be very wary of tulwars with such markings, and if seen, would really like to look further into them as distinct anomalies which might present new perspective on these balemarks in use. As we have discussed on occasion, the EIC balemark was often spuriously reproduced by native gunsmiths in Khyber regions, in many cases well into the 20th century on gun locks. We have even seen flintlocks with the balemark and dated in 1870s!

All the best,
Jim

[Pukka Bundook]

Thank you for your reply Jim!

I have been around, but even though I am interested in the European arms, there is so often on those threads such an overwhelming amount of photos, my computer can't handle it!.......It just takes too long.
Anyway, back to EIC;

I am afraid I do not know what the EIC bailmark looks like.
The mark I have seen, is on both hilt and blade, and is the EIC, one letter stamped at each corner of a triangle.
On blades, the stamp is often not clear, ,...not always applied evenly. On hilts, the stamp often dents the handle a little when applied.

The marks on the one I have were not a part of the sellers description, and indeed didn't show under the grunge until cleaned up a little. Since then, I have seen a few with these marks, and it never crossed my mind it may be spurious!
When looking online at tulwars for sale, the seller often miss-translates the lettering, which indicates to me that it is no ploy for monetary gain. (As in "E I G" or E-C or some such.
As time permits, I will try and add photos of the marks in question.

Thank you again Jim!!

Richard.
The photo is from a sword sold fairly recently, on mine, the stamp appers as an "E,... line... C".

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Richard,
Im sorry I didnt add the marks, I guess I had gotten complacent after the discussions we recently had on them and simply forgot to include examples.
The EIC as noted used the quartered heart, typically surmounted by a 4 (which was actually a disguised cross, issued with the heart in place of the 'orb' with reference to the cross and orb symbol ). In Bengal it seems that the 'flaunched' style heart using that heraldic feature became popular. Both were supplanted by the rampant lion around 1808.....but as noted, these did not end appearance as Indian makers still copied the stamps.
It is interesting to note that the 'V' in the acronym actually stands for 'united', not 'venerable' as is often assumed. In those days the U was written as a V.

As you have noted, by 1858, the East India Company had given way to the British government in its dominion of India.

The marking you show here seems much more modern and of commercial trademark style, and the EIC never used such a marking as far as I know. Also, as I mentioned, they did not mark weapons with thier markings except for the guns and bayonets.

It is well known that in India, armourers characteristically tried to imitate European markings and inscriptions to allude to the quality of thier products.
Often these intrepretations have produced somewhat humorous arrangements of unintelligible psuedo inscriptions, but this seems perhaps a marking of commercial nature. In India there were often instances where commercial entities had guards or security forces issued weapons, for example many swords of British M1853 pattern were made by a firm called Rodwell & Co. for a railroad (Baroda or something if memory serves).

I hope this helps Richard, and again really great to have you back!!! Please keep finding these intriguing tulwars!!! Since that one you restored I always think of you as 'a tulwars best friend' !!!

All the very best,
Jim

[Pukka Bundook]

Hmmmm...You have me wondering about all this Jim.

Feelings are worthless, yet I have seen these same marks time and again, and get the 'feling' they must amount to something.
I can't help but think that if these marks weren't genuine, they would have been stamped better......as in not half-stamped as many appear.
(If one were to mark something to increase its value, would you not mark it in a way that can easily be decifered?)

I must clarify that I don't think the East India Company had these swords made. I am sure they did not, but I do think it possible that they were marked in this way when they fell into the posession of the E I Co.

One often sees the arms of india marked with armoury marks to which they did not originally belong, and I am wondering if the EIC marked 'spoils of war' or whatever in a similar manner?

I'm not done with this yet Jim, as it's all a bit fuzzy!

Best of everything,
R.

PS,
The attached pic of the tulwar quillon is one from a very well known arms dealer's catalogue.
The other picture is from an English auction house, and is of a sword apparently made for an officer of the EIC, in 1827.
(Drewatt's catalogue)
The two swords have nothing in common, but I added the hilt photo as it seems to bear the right marks, and is apparently an example of a sword marked for the company on production. (tho' this is a separate matter really!)

R.

[Atlantia]

Here are two pictures hilt and blade of the same EIC/triangle stamp. They are ona Tulwar I recently handled in person (but which is not mine).
The stamping looked like it was done in a hurry. Hard but hurried strikes, jumping and ghosting on both. On the hilt the force of the impact has actually noticably dented the grip.
The result though is difficult to make out, in fact I had to point out to the owner that it appeared to be some kind of EIC stamp.
I would have thought if it was done to add value, it would be done with enough care to make sure it was readable?
This looked much more like a 'Bang, Bang, next!' approach.
That said, its not a style of EIC stamp I've seen before.
Perhaps all from the same armoury?