Sword marking for ID

Evgeny_K · 28th November 2019, 01:34 PM

Dear colleagues,
I would be very grateful if you help to identify this marking (from THIS sword).
I'm not sure of its origin (maybe Austrian, maybe Italian...).

Jim McDougall · 29th November 2019, 01:32 PM

Evgeny, this truly is a beauty! and while I cannot place the deeply stamped mark as yet, I am inclined toward an Eastern European origin for the sword. I have seen the pommel type but need to check further. Hopefully more advanced members will offer insights, but I will surely keep looking myself.

Any notes you might add as far as possible provenance or findings thus far in your research?

Evgeny_K · 29th November 2019, 04:14 PM

Jim, thank you for reply. As I know this sword/saber was found somewhere nearby the former Moldova principality. Unfortunately I do not have more details.

Jim McDougall · 29th November 2019, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evgeny_K

Jim, thank you for reply. As I know this sword/saber was found somewhere nearby the former Moldova principality. Unfortunately I do not have more details.

Thank you Evgeny, that is most helpful, and my thoughts are as I noted, East Europe in initial impression, so that region would of course correspond. My resources on weapons from these areas are not great, and while most European markings are fairly covered in the familiar compendiums, however those of most of these areas, as you well know, are typically not.

The best bet is going to be guys like Jasper, who know from hands on experience, these kinds of markings not usually in these references. I look forward to hearing from him and anyone else who might have seen this mark, but continue looking and hope to learn more on this sabre type.

Thank you very much for posting this and the information.

Evgeny_K · 29th November 2019, 06:50 PM

Thank you, Jim! I hope that together we can find out what this marking is.
I forgot to mention that there is an inlaid inscription on the blade that looks like: "E ... + X".

Jim McDougall · 30th November 2019, 12:46 AM

You bet Evgeny! Actually I have been working on this all day, and dragged out every resource I have on hand.

While I could not find an exact match, I not reluctant to express my thoughts based on the information I could find. I enjoy researching from examples such as yours as it is a learning experience. If the 'experts' come in and correct my observations, then all the better

It would appear from info in Wagner (1967) that your saber (hiebmesser) is likely of German, E.European origin and likely 16th century by the form and character as seen in the images. This was of course a transitional period and diffusion of blades and styles moved in all directions regionally, especially with mercenary forces and colonization.

The curved blade with yelman such as yours is known in Bohemia in 16th c. but these type weapons were well known for burghers earlier. Hungary and Balkans were populated by Germans, so the German form would not be surprising with Moldava provenance as you note.

The pommel reminds me of the schiavona types though not the exact same and these are known to have come from Hungarian swords of these periods into Dalmatian regions.

With the marking, I went through everything, Lenciewicz, Gyngell, Kinman, Gardner, Wagner, etc. and no EXACT match. However I found comparisons similar in styling with joined geometric designs, in a sigil like fashion, and the split foot (tails) is apparently used in Milan situated marks. Otherwise the design resembles early Passau type markings of 1520s-60s.

It is tempting to consider this sword may be of S. German origin to East Europe of 16th century, with character of earlier straight blade swords (Oakeshott type III) in the hilt with a curved blade favored in E. Europe.

The use of blade inscriptions is fascinating and it would be good to make this one out. I wonder if your mark may have been latten filled.

The marking may be a sundry example which may have incorporated any of the elements of others circulating in these times, and possibly by armorers outfitting mercenary forces in Passau for one. These and other regional locations had blades, swords and other arms from makers in Solingen and Styrian sources which remain unrecorded as far as markings in many cases.

Sorry unable to find a match, but I think the rest of the detail is somewhat plausible as far as the sword overall. Authentication is of course best determined with hands on examination and analysis.
Looks like a great piece !!!

28th November 2019, 01:34 PM	#1
Evgeny_K Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 208	Sword marking for ID Dear colleagues, I would be very grateful if you help to identify this marking (from THIS sword). I'm not sure of its origin (maybe Austrian, maybe Italian...). Attached Images

29th November 2019, 01:32 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Evgeny, this truly is a beauty! and while I cannot place the deeply stamped mark as yet, I am inclined toward an Eastern European origin for the sword. I have seen the pommel type but need to check further. Hopefully more advanced members will offer insights, but I will surely keep looking myself. Any notes you might add as far as possible provenance or findings thus far in your research?

29th November 2019, 04:14 PM	#3
Evgeny_K Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 208	Jim, thank you for reply. As I know this sword/saber was found somewhere nearby the former Moldova principality. Unfortunately I do not have more details.

29th November 2019, 06:50 PM	#5
Evgeny_K Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 208	Thank you, Jim! I hope that together we can find out what this marking is. I forgot to mention that there is an inlaid inscription on the blade that looks like: "E ... + X".

30th November 2019, 12:46 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	You bet Evgeny! Actually I have been working on this all day, and dragged out every resource I have on hand. While I could not find an exact match, I not reluctant to express my thoughts based on the information I could find. I enjoy researching from examples such as yours as it is a learning experience. If the 'experts' come in and correct my observations, then all the better It would appear from info in Wagner (1967) that your saber (hiebmesser) is likely of German, E.European origin and likely 16th century by the form and character as seen in the images. This was of course a transitional period and diffusion of blades and styles moved in all directions regionally, especially with mercenary forces and colonization. The curved blade with yelman such as yours is known in Bohemia in 16th c. but these type weapons were well known for burghers earlier. Hungary and Balkans were populated by Germans, so the German form would not be surprising with Moldava provenance as you note. The pommel reminds me of the schiavona types though not the exact same and these are known to have come from Hungarian swords of these periods into Dalmatian regions. With the marking, I went through everything, Lenciewicz, Gyngell, Kinman, Gardner, Wagner, etc. and no EXACT match. However I found comparisons similar in styling with joined geometric designs, in a sigil like fashion, and the split foot (tails) is apparently used in Milan situated marks. Otherwise the design resembles early Passau type markings of 1520s-60s. It is tempting to consider this sword may be of S. German origin to East Europe of 16th century, with character of earlier straight blade swords (Oakeshott type III) in the hilt with a curved blade favored in E. Europe. The use of blade inscriptions is fascinating and it would be good to make this one out. I wonder if your mark may have been latten filled. The marking may be a sundry example which may have incorporated any of the elements of others circulating in these times, and possibly by armorers outfitting mercenary forces in Passau for one. These and other regional locations had blades, swords and other arms from makers in Solingen and Styrian sources which remain unrecorded as far as markings in many cases. Sorry unable to find a match, but I think the rest of the detail is somewhat plausible as far as the sword overall. Authentication is of course best determined with hands on examination and analysis. Looks like a great piece !!!