Napoleonic Period British Artillery Short Sword Initials

bvieira · 1st November 2019, 11:58 PM

Hello,

Does anybody knows the possible meaning of the initials on this sword ?

R. F. Nº. Gª. Fª

Thanks!

Best Regards,

BV

fernando · 3rd November 2019, 06:03 PM

Bruno, could you post a picture of the cross guard where the initials are engraved ?
Maybe the style of the letters helps in its identification.
It could just be my idea but, initilalizing numbers with 'º' and names with 'ª' doesn't seem to be either British or French; more like Spanish ?

.

fernando · 4th November 2019, 02:17 PM

Bruno, if you click on THIS LINK you will find some interesting info on these short swords ... but unfortunately not about the inscription

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Will M · 4th November 2019, 04:12 PM

The sword is a British pattern and is a patent hilt design with the full tang visible through the grip.
Interesting the link shows the reference book as it's a French naval sword but actually a Belgian infantry sword.
Somehow I did not remember it being in that book.
Some long held assumptions of it being British and french are false

Jim McDougall · 4th November 2019, 05:54 PM

Actually this does seem to resemble a type of British band sword of about 1820s if I recall, but that guard with a kind of dumbbell shape does seem French. The lion head was an extremely popular zoomorphic for pommels from mid 18th c. and its use may well be from other European influences, but as far as I recall no distinct links are asserted in the varied instances.

I would note here that the use of the lion head in the American colonies was very much in line with these figures in Great Britain, naturally as in the Revolutionary period and later these people had been British. Actually many, if not most of the edged weapons used in America were British or other European forms.

The convention of using superscript in abbreviation was, as far as I have found, used throughout European cases, which includes England and France as well as Spain, though it does seem Spanish examples are resoundingly apparent.

fernando · 5th November 2019, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...The convention of using superscript in abbreviation was, as far as I have found, used throughout European cases, which includes England and France as well as Spain, though it does seem Spanish examples are resoundingly apparent.

I confess that i would not have the capacity to judge on this "Gladius" origin, as visibly this type of sword appeared in more than one place. Also while i will not dispute Bruno's info coming from his British connection that this is a British version, i would not be so certain that it has been a regular weapon in the Peninsular War; well, it is not listed in Faria/Regalado work, for one.
On the other hand i feel more comfortable in dissecting the inscription characteristics, in what concerns the abbreviations. The deal here is gender; zillions of substantives (nouns) are either masculine or feminine, both in Spanish and Portuguese ... and other Latinized languages.
Meaning that those A's are either Portuguese or Spanish feminine articles; not English nor French. Same goes for the 0 being of masculine gender. So those marks could well be regimental; the Nº being for a number (número) if we 'speculate' that there is a faded digit hidden by the (later ?) central fixation rivet. Also if we speculate that the G could well be a 6, we would have something like a sixth (sexta) company, or the like.
Still i don't find a matching regimental mark for this inscription, even considering the above thoughts; so i have just digressed

.

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bvieira · 4th November 2019, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Bruno, could you post a picture of the cross guard where the initials are engraved ?
Maybe the style of the letters helps in its identification.
It could just be my idea but, initilalizing numbers with 'º' and names with 'ª' doesn't seem to be either British or French; more like Spanish ?

.

Don't know! i did not find any documentation on any spanish sword like this, a british person said to me that it was clearly a british artilery short sword from the napoleonic times, but in the other thread there is a clear picture saying it's french naval!

The letters may help in discovering the origin! it was said to be found in portugal so it would make sense to be british or french because of the peninsular war.

Regards,

BV

Jim McDougall · 4th November 2019, 08:20 PM

Bonk! Shoulda known it might be in Nuemann ("Swords of the American Revolution", 1973)…..no wonder Fernando's American Revolution antennae were twitching

Will M · 5th November 2019, 12:01 PM

In the link posted is this:
"Another cast lion hilt in Neumann's to consider is attached below here. I have it handy as an example of brass work from another discussion. What is listed there as French naval artillery turns out to be actually better listed as Belgian (yes?) infantry."

1st November 2019, 11:58 PM	#1
bvieira Member Join Date: Jul 2018 Posts: 108	Napoleonic Period British Artillery Short Sword Initials Hello, Does anybody knows the possible meaning of the initials on this sword ? R. F. Nº. Gª. Fª Thanks! Best Regards, BV Attached Images Last edited by bvieira; 2nd November 2019 at 12:56 AM.

4th November 2019, 04:12 PM	#4
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 391	The sword is a British pattern and is a patent hilt design with the full tang visible through the grip. Interesting the link shows the reference book as it's a French naval sword but actually a Belgian infantry sword. Somehow I did not remember it being in that book. Some long held assumptions of it being British and french are false Last edited by Will M; 4th November 2019 at 04:23 PM.

3rd November 2019, 06:03 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Bruno, could you post a picture of the cross guard where the initials are engraved ? Maybe the style of the letters helps in its identification. It could just be my idea but, initilalizing numbers with 'º' and names with 'ª' doesn't seem to be either British or French; more like Spanish ? .

4th November 2019, 02:17 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Bruno, if you click on THIS LINK you will find some interesting info on these short swords ... but unfortunately not about the inscription .

4th November 2019, 05:54 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Actually this does seem to resemble a type of British band sword of about 1820s if I recall, but that guard with a kind of dumbbell shape does seem French. The lion head was an extremely popular zoomorphic for pommels from mid 18th c. and its use may well be from other European influences, but as far as I recall no distinct links are asserted in the varied instances. I would note here that the use of the lion head in the American colonies was very much in line with these figures in Great Britain, naturally as in the Revolutionary period and later these people had been British. Actually many, if not most of the edged weapons used in America were British or other European forms. The convention of using superscript in abbreviation was, as far as I have found, used throughout European cases, which includes England and France as well as Spain, though it does seem Spanish examples are resoundingly apparent.

4th November 2019, 08:20 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Bonk! Shoulda known it might be in Nuemann ("Swords of the American Revolution", 1973)…..no wonder Fernando's American Revolution antennae were twitching

5th November 2019, 12:01 PM	#9
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 391	In the link posted is this: "Another cast lion hilt in Neumann's to consider is attached below here. I have it handy as an example of brass work from another discussion. What is listed there as French naval artillery turns out to be actually better listed as Belgian (yes?) infantry."