Buying at arm's length

A. G. Maisey · 3rd August 2019, 09:58 PM

By the term "arm's length", I mean "at a distance", and for many people that is the way they normally add to to their collections.

Over the last couple of weeks I have had several discussions with collectors who have in the past bought items that they collect, from sellers in Australia, or are considering buying from an Australian seller at the moment. I live in Australia, and I send items to other countries throughout the world pretty regularly. It has been suggested to me that if I were to pass on to others some of what I know, it might be useful to them.

To begin, here is the "Shipping From Italy" thread

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=25155&page=1

this thread has revealed a lot of problems that can be associated with international purchase of the type of things that we collect. Some of the posts to that thread are nightmare material. I believe that everything that has been said in this thread can apply to Australia if the applicable circumstances are not correctly managed.

Then there is the increasing difficulty that we face with ivory.

In Australia the laws in respect of both import and export of ivory are very strictly enforced. I have a reasonably large collection of ivory. Apart from well over 100 ivory keris hilts, I also have a large number of other ivory carvings. Some time ago I decided to downsize these collections and sell off some of my ivory. In theory, this is possible. In practice the cost involved makes both import and export far too expensive for anything other than highly valuable antiques, items that have values into the tens of thousands of dollars.

The problems outlined in the "Shipping from Italy" thread and that refer to the attitude of shipping companies in respect of shipping weapons also apply to shipping companies in Australia. However I have been shipping with Australia Post for over 35 years, my descriptions are always culturally accurate, and I have never had even the smallest problem with a post office refusing to accept a parcel from me. Courier companies such as DHL are just as difficult and as expensive here in Australia as they are everywhere else.

However, apart from the continuing problems mentioned above, there is another problem that is associated with buying at long distance, whether buying in our country of residence, or buying in a foreign country. That problem is the inaccuracy of descriptions offered by private persons, dealers and auction houses --- most particularly by auction houses.

This inaccuracy in many cases verges on misrepresentation, and in my own field of keris and other South East Asian weapons it is a recurring problem. Only last week I had a query from a long time friend who had bought a keris through auction, that I had originally sold about 25 years ago. The auction description was that the pendok was silver, and the "gem set selut" was silver.

This was straight out misrepresentation, because the pendok was silver plated brass, the selut had a body of tin, and the "gems" were cubic zirconia. The keris concerned was worth only a fraction of what it had cost him to buy at auction, and he had bid on the basis of belief that he was buying silver and gems.

Silver does not mean something that looks like silver, and a "gem" according to the Oxford Dictionary is a "precious stone". Cubics, pastes, glass, and bits of plastic are not precious stones.

We can never, ever trust any auction description. Auction houses go to great lengths to try to ensure that they cannot have legal action taken against them for misrepresentation, and include in their "Terms" statements such as this:-

"The description of the goods as presented in any catalogue, published by Smith & Jones Fine Art Auctioneers in any form or format, is meant as a guide to the description of the goods, their provenance, source, the integrity of the source and/or the integrity of the goods, and therefore should not be relied upon, by any buyer."

Don't worry, there is no auctioneer called " Smith & Jones Fine Art Auctioneers ", I made up that name, but this sort of disavowal of anything printed in a catalogue or said by the auctioneer is absolutely typical of the way that all auctioneers try to protect themselves. On the one hand, they describe things as "silver" in their catalogues, then in the small print they effectively say "well, basically we are liars, you cannot believe a word we say"

In my opinion, it is incumbent upon everybody who offers something for sale to ensure that the item offered for sale is accurately described, most particularly so where an inaccurate description will affect value, and where the nature of a material cannot be verified by simple visual examination.

It is all very well to speak of "buyer beware", but when we buy at long distance how is it possible to ensure that we know exactly what it is that we wish to buy, unless we can rely upon the description given by the seller? How can we rely upon an auctioneer's description when he goes out of his way to inform us that we cannot rely upon one word that he prints or says?

It is possible, perhaps probable that what I have written above is all too familiar to many people who will read it, but in view of some of the feedback I have had from people whom I would have expected to know the above, chapter & verse, perhaps it has done no harm for me to repeat it here.

Bob A · 3rd August 2019, 10:42 PM

Sadly true, Alan.

Above and beyond the above, the fees tacked on to the hammer prices, and the taxes, shipping and so forth can amount to a considerable overage. Depending on the cost and size of the item, one can conceivably increase the amount of purchase by 40-50%.

I'm coming to the conclusion that auctions based in other countries have a considerably increased risk factor. In the absence of a reliable buyer's agent in place, the chances of a pleasant outcome are substantially reduced. Further, you are at the mercy of a nation whose laws and customs are obscure to you, while the auction house is keenly aware of details that skew results in their favor.

That said, I've bought successfully from auction houses known to the members here; of course, here in the USA the issues involved in international transactions are not in play.

Ian · 4th August 2019, 05:25 AM

Hi Alan,

You have nailed the problems well.

In an attempt to address some of these issues, I'm presently working with an Australian auction that has twice-yearly auctions of firearms plus some edged weapons. I will have a number of items in their next auction and provided descriptions of those items for their catalogue. They have accepted my descriptions and my estimated prices for these items. They also asked me to look at several edged weapons submitted to the same auction. I provided descriptions and my estimated prices for these also. They have again accepted my descriptions and price recommendations for their catalogue.

The substantial majority of what other people submitted comprised decorative pieces made for those who travel. I was allowed to use terms such as "low quality," "non-functional blade," "decorative item," "silver wash," "village quality" and other descriptors that would indicate to a knowledgeable prospective buyer that these are likely to be inexpensive items.

Lots of two or three items can be a clue to their lack of quality and a desire for the organizers of the auction to move them in a group rather than waste precious auction time by selling them individually for little monetary return. Sometimes this can backfire, and a sleeper can leak through for a low price. I've been a beneficiary of that good fortune a few times.

I'm hoping that by knowing the directors of this auction, and having some input into the edged weapon descriptions and valuations that appear in their catalogue, may offer buyers a more realistic idea of the items for sale and their respective value. I'll let you know how it goes.

Ian.

Green · 4th August 2019, 08:39 AM

in the final analysis i think it boils down to "know what you buy". I've bought quite a few items from auction houses from USA and Europe and I hardly paid any attention to the description which can sometimes be completely wrong. But if i like what i see i will still bid for it.

my only worry is with regards to shipping as i don't know exactly how stringent the rulings are in these countries with regards to ivory materials even if they are clearly old but do not come with cites cert. my only recourse is just to request the shipper to word the description of the item creatively (but correctly), a prayer and hope for the best. so far no problem encountered (yet) and hope it will continue to be so

mariusgmioc · 4th August 2019, 11:13 AM

Yes, most of us encountered at least some, if not all of the problems mentioned above.

To my utter dissapointment not once, but many times I have encountered wrongly described items even with very prestigeous and reputable auction houses.

Not long ago, I purchased a sword from a reputable auction house. All the photos showed the sword and scabbard in good detail and everything seemed to be in good order. The sword was also described to be in good condition but...

... When I received the sword, I noticed the chappe of the scabbard was wrapped in tape. I thought it was for additional protection, but when I removed the tape the chape literally burst open into 3 parts.

I contacted the auction house and they asked me if I know a restorer, have it restored and send them the bill... So a lot of hassle and problems on my side. Now I will try to make them take the sword back for a full refund...

Jean · 4th August 2019, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

in the final analysis i think it boils down to "know what you buy". I've bought quite a few items from auction houses from USA and Europe and I hardly paid any attention to the description which can sometimes be completely wrong.

I agree with Green, and I bought the bulk of my collection "at arm's length" and with time I have learned to carefully select and assess the quality of the items on the basis of clear pictures. Of course I am mistaken from time to time but much less than years ago when I totally lacked experience. One surprising phenomenon these days is that some auction houses sell ivory-hilted krisses as bone or antler for avoiding Cites issues!
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 4th August 2019, 02:00 PM

In my initial post I mentioned two examples of what I believe could be construed as misrepresentation:-

1) material that is not silver presented as silver

2) material that in no way could be considered to be gems presented as gems.

this is the point I am trying to drive home.

I did not mention incorrect descriptions of type or style, I did not mention opinions. I mentioned material of little worth presented as material of worth. In other words misrepresentation.

Of course we need to have an understanding of the items that we may bid on, of course we need to assess quality as best we can from photographs that are very often completely inadequate. All this is a given, and it is not at all what I was writing about.

But how is it possible to know if one is looking at silver or polished mamas or silver plate from a photo, if experienced people need to test the material when they have it in their hands in order to know with certainty what it is?

How is it possible to differentiate between cubic zirconia and diamond when all you have to go on is a bad photograph?

This is what I'm talking about. Plain, pure, old fashioned lies.

Nothing at all to do with quality or "knowing what you buy", or incorrect general descriptions, however, when a considerable part of the value of the item that you expect to bid upon is tied up in the material from which it is made, then any naming of that material must be accurate.

If you buy from a photograph and a description that description needs to be accurate, and all the disavowals in the world that can be found the Terms section of an auction catalogue do not replace honesty and care.

In fact, it is many years since I purchased anything that I could not either handle, or that was not offered to me by an experienced person whom I trusted.

3rd August 2019, 09:58 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Buying at arm's length By the term "arm's length", I mean "at a distance", and for many people that is the way they normally add to to their collections. Over the last couple of weeks I have had several discussions with collectors who have in the past bought items that they collect, from sellers in Australia, or are considering buying from an Australian seller at the moment. I live in Australia, and I send items to other countries throughout the world pretty regularly. It has been suggested to me that if I were to pass on to others some of what I know, it might be useful to them. To begin, here is the "Shipping From Italy" thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=25155&page=1 this thread has revealed a lot of problems that can be associated with international purchase of the type of things that we collect. Some of the posts to that thread are nightmare material. I believe that everything that has been said in this thread can apply to Australia if the applicable circumstances are not correctly managed. Then there is the increasing difficulty that we face with ivory. In Australia the laws in respect of both import and export of ivory are very strictly enforced. I have a reasonably large collection of ivory. Apart from well over 100 ivory keris hilts, I also have a large number of other ivory carvings. Some time ago I decided to downsize these collections and sell off some of my ivory. In theory, this is possible. In practice the cost involved makes both import and export far too expensive for anything other than highly valuable antiques, items that have values into the tens of thousands of dollars. The problems outlined in the "Shipping from Italy" thread and that refer to the attitude of shipping companies in respect of shipping weapons also apply to shipping companies in Australia. However I have been shipping with Australia Post for over 35 years, my descriptions are always culturally accurate, and I have never had even the smallest problem with a post office refusing to accept a parcel from me. Courier companies such as DHL are just as difficult and as expensive here in Australia as they are everywhere else. However, apart from the continuing problems mentioned above, there is another problem that is associated with buying at long distance, whether buying in our country of residence, or buying in a foreign country. That problem is the inaccuracy of descriptions offered by private persons, dealers and auction houses --- most particularly by auction houses. This inaccuracy in many cases verges on misrepresentation, and in my own field of keris and other South East Asian weapons it is a recurring problem. Only last week I had a query from a long time friend who had bought a keris through auction, that I had originally sold about 25 years ago. The auction description was that the pendok was silver, and the "gem set selut" was silver. This was straight out misrepresentation, because the pendok was silver plated brass, the selut had a body of tin, and the "gems" were cubic zirconia. The keris concerned was worth only a fraction of what it had cost him to buy at auction, and he had bid on the basis of belief that he was buying silver and gems. Silver does not mean something that looks like silver, and a "gem" according to the Oxford Dictionary is a "precious stone". Cubics, pastes, glass, and bits of plastic are not precious stones. We can never, ever trust any auction description. Auction houses go to great lengths to try to ensure that they cannot have legal action taken against them for misrepresentation, and include in their "Terms" statements such as this:- "The description of the goods as presented in any catalogue, published by Smith & Jones Fine Art Auctioneers in any form or format, is meant as a guide to the description of the goods, their provenance, source, the integrity of the source and/or the integrity of the goods, and therefore should not be relied upon, by any buyer." Don't worry, there is no auctioneer called " Smith & Jones Fine Art Auctioneers ", I made up that name, but this sort of disavowal of anything printed in a catalogue or said by the auctioneer is absolutely typical of the way that all auctioneers try to protect themselves. On the one hand, they describe things as "silver" in their catalogues, then in the small print they effectively say "well, basically we are liars, you cannot believe a word we say" In my opinion, it is incumbent upon everybody who offers something for sale to ensure that the item offered for sale is accurately described, most particularly so where an inaccurate description will affect value, and where the nature of a material cannot be verified by simple visual examination. It is all very well to speak of "buyer beware", but when we buy at long distance how is it possible to ensure that we know exactly what it is that we wish to buy, unless we can rely upon the description given by the seller? How can we rely upon an auctioneer's description when he goes out of his way to inform us that we cannot rely upon one word that he prints or says? It is possible, perhaps probable that what I have written above is all too familiar to many people who will read it, but in view of some of the feedback I have had from people whom I would have expected to know the above, chapter & verse, perhaps it has done no harm for me to repeat it here.

3rd August 2019, 10:42 PM	#2
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 427	Sadly true, Alan. Above and beyond the above, the fees tacked on to the hammer prices, and the taxes, shipping and so forth can amount to a considerable overage. Depending on the cost and size of the item, one can conceivably increase the amount of purchase by 40-50%. I'm coming to the conclusion that auctions based in other countries have a considerably increased risk factor. In the absence of a reliable buyer's agent in place, the chances of a pleasant outcome are substantially reduced. Further, you are at the mercy of a nation whose laws and customs are obscure to you, while the auction house is keenly aware of details that skew results in their favor. That said, I've bought successfully from auction houses known to the members here; of course, here in the USA the issues involved in international transactions are not in play.

4th August 2019, 05:25 AM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,203	Hi Alan, You have nailed the problems well. In an attempt to address some of these issues, I'm presently working with an Australian auction that has twice-yearly auctions of firearms plus some edged weapons. I will have a number of items in their next auction and provided descriptions of those items for their catalogue. They have accepted my descriptions and my estimated prices for these items. They also asked me to look at several edged weapons submitted to the same auction. I provided descriptions and my estimated prices for these also. They have again accepted my descriptions and price recommendations for their catalogue. The substantial majority of what other people submitted comprised decorative pieces made for those who travel. I was allowed to use terms such as "low quality," "non-functional blade," "decorative item," "silver wash," "village quality" and other descriptors that would indicate to a knowledgeable prospective buyer that these are likely to be inexpensive items. Lots of two or three items can be a clue to their lack of quality and a desire for the organizers of the auction to move them in a group rather than waste precious auction time by selling them individually for little monetary return. Sometimes this can backfire, and a sleeper can leak through for a low price. I've been a beneficiary of that good fortune a few times. I'm hoping that by knowing the directors of this auction, and having some input into the edged weapon descriptions and valuations that appear in their catalogue, may offer buyers a more realistic idea of the items for sale and their respective value. I'll let you know how it goes. Ian.

4th August 2019, 08:39 AM	#4
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 312	in the final analysis i think it boils down to "know what you buy". I've bought quite a few items from auction houses from USA and Europe and I hardly paid any attention to the description which can sometimes be completely wrong. But if i like what i see i will still bid for it. my only worry is with regards to shipping as i don't know exactly how stringent the rulings are in these countries with regards to ivory materials even if they are clearly old but do not come with cites cert. my only recourse is just to request the shipper to word the description of the item creatively (but correctly), a prayer and hope for the best. so far no problem encountered (yet) and hope it will continue to be so

4th August 2019, 11:13 AM	#5
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Yes, most of us encountered at least some, if not all of the problems mentioned above. To my utter dissapointment not once, but many times I have encountered wrongly described items even with very prestigeous and reputable auction houses. Not long ago, I purchased a sword from a reputable auction house. All the photos showed the sword and scabbard in good detail and everything seemed to be in good order. The sword was also described to be in good condition but... ... When I received the sword, I noticed the chappe of the scabbard was wrapped in tape. I thought it was for additional protection, but when I removed the tape the chape literally burst open into 3 parts. I contacted the auction house and they asked me if I know a restorer, have it restored and send them the bill... So a lot of hassle and problems on my side. Now I will try to make them take the sword back for a full refund...

4th August 2019, 02:00 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	In my initial post I mentioned two examples of what I believe could be construed as misrepresentation:- 1) material that is not silver presented as silver 2) material that in no way could be considered to be gems presented as gems. this is the point I am trying to drive home. I did not mention incorrect descriptions of type or style, I did not mention opinions. I mentioned material of little worth presented as material of worth. In other words misrepresentation. Of course we need to have an understanding of the items that we may bid on, of course we need to assess quality as best we can from photographs that are very often completely inadequate. All this is a given, and it is not at all what I was writing about. But how is it possible to know if one is looking at silver or polished mamas or silver plate from a photo, if experienced people need to test the material when they have it in their hands in order to know with certainty what it is? How is it possible to differentiate between cubic zirconia and diamond when all you have to go on is a bad photograph? This is what I'm talking about. Plain, pure, old fashioned lies. Nothing at all to do with quality or "knowing what you buy", or incorrect general descriptions, however, when a considerable part of the value of the item that you expect to bid upon is tied up in the material from which it is made, then any naming of that material must be accurate. If you buy from a photograph and a description that description needs to be accurate, and all the disavowals in the world that can be found the Terms section of an auction catalogue do not replace honesty and care. In fact, it is many years since I purchased anything that I could not either handle, or that was not offered to me by an experienced person whom I trusted.