Non ethno sword with strange inscription

eftihis · 8th March 2005, 03:58 PM

Since i took out of the closet all the swords with inscriptions, please permit me to show you this one also.
It is of heavy and good construction, has a good feeling at hand, but has no edge! It is not sharp at all, and although there are nicks on the "blade" it seems that has been a training weapon, or maybe a ceremonial piece?
The sword has some age, and the most puzzling are the inscriptions it has on both sides. They are in an unknown to me language, i have no clue if it is an oriental script or some sort of old european style script.One the one side of the blade there is an eye (reminds me of something masonic) and on the other side the design of a medieval sword.
Any clues?

Rivkin · 8th March 2005, 04:25 PM

For what such ignorant answer is worth:

It does not seem to be Mkhedruli, but I vaguely remember books on alchemistry filled with similar "letters".

Mark · 8th March 2005, 04:38 PM

Dunno. I tried zodiac, runes, alchemical and Kabbalah symbology. Not clear match. The closest resemblance is to zodiacal symbols (which are essentially alchemical), but that is only with two or three of those on the blade. They are not Masonic as far as I know. The eye looks more Egyptian/Eye of Ra than the All-Seeing Eye of Freemasonry, which usually is depicted within overlapped square and compass, and with rays eminating from it.

Very mysterious. Any idea of the country of origin?

fearn · 8th March 2005, 04:57 PM

That looks like upside-down Theban script to me.

Theban is used by wiccans on their tools and things, so I'd say that you got a ceremonial blade of some sort. I have no idea of where the script came from originally, although it probably came from some ceremonial magician or alchemist

You can search for it on the web, but here's the translation sheet I got off the web.

I tried translating it from the script, but I think it'd be easier on the blade itself, rightside up. I think the first frame says something like "Ace of Swords"

My guess is that someone got an old sword, and reinscribed it for ceremonial use sometime in the last 50 years.

Probably explains why it feels so good in your hand, too.

Fearn

Jens Nordlunde · 8th March 2005, 05:11 PM

Here is a link to Theban and other alphabets
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/theban.htm

Can you see if the writing and the eye are made with an electric tool, to me the curves seems as if they are.

Jens

Naga Basuki · 8th March 2005, 05:20 PM

Looks like the "Angelic" writing of Dr. John Dee.

fearn · 8th March 2005, 09:42 PM

Hmm. I'm pretty sure it's not Dee's Enochian/Angelic script.

That can be found here

eftihis · 10th March 2005, 01:12 PM

Dear friends,
Thanks for all this input, i couldnt imagine this subject to be so interesting!
Yannis, globalisation indeed, because i bought this some years ago as part from a lot of 5 weapons from UK. All the others were "ethnographic" and really old, so i assume this was also old and propably belonged to the same owner. I wanted the other ones, i just had to take this also. (So if somebody wants it, i happily will exchange it with an ethnograpchic!, islamic,greek, balkan or turkish)
So i do not think it was used in role -playing either, since this should have been for some years in a collection.
By the way, yes, the sword is shortened, it is easy to see.

So UK, is the home of the sword before coming to Crete.
It could have never been a local magical utensil here, because i dont thing anybody would write in a language that substitutes the letters of the English alphabet anyway.
It is interesting though that in Crete also, as well in Greece and like in all planet there use to be local magical practises, in which, in the example of Crete, an important role was played by the knife- not sword.
A famous example is the practise use by the young "lyrari" (lyra playing musician of our traditional music) that in order to became a great player, he had to go in a crossroad at night so that the "reraides" (mermaids in English?) will teach him to play perfectly. But for return, they would take his mind, so he would become "crazy". The only remedy is to draw a circle with a black handled cretan knife (only with black horn handle, i dont know why...) on the soil arround him.
The neraides will be arround him and teach him, but cannot enter the circle!

fearn · 10th March 2005, 01:56 PM

Hi Nechesh,

You could be right about the ceremonial magic part. As for whether the knife represents air or fire, I think that varies by tradition. I seem to recall that Gardnerian wicca uses air=knife, and Alexandrian wicca uses fire=knife (though I might have that reversed). Other groups follow one, the other, or both. It gets to be an interesting argument if you're in to such things, mostly because it starts with statements like "OF COURSE the knife represents...." "You idiot, who taught you?..." and ends up with "You know, this is confusing. Do what feels comfortable to you."

Hi Efithis,

Interesting that the Lyrari use a black-handled knife, because that's exactly what Wicca uses, a black-handled knife (athame). One of the major uses of the athame is to cast a circle, and your sword could basically be a big athame for public events (or whatever) if it's not a ceremonial magician's tool.

It's curious since as I posted about a month ago, no one knows where the term athame came from, although the black-handled knife is an old magician's tool.

Fearn

8th March 2005, 03:58 PM	#1
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	Non ethno sword with strange inscription Since i took out of the closet all the swords with inscriptions, please permit me to show you this one also. It is of heavy and good construction, has a good feeling at hand, but has no edge! It is not sharp at all, and although there are nicks on the "blade" it seems that has been a training weapon, or maybe a ceremonial piece? The sword has some age, and the most puzzling are the inscriptions it has on both sides. They are in an unknown to me language, i have no clue if it is an oriental script or some sort of old european style script.One the one side of the blade there is an eye (reminds me of something masonic) and on the other side the design of a medieval sword. Any clues? Attached Images

8th March 2005, 04:57 PM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	That looks like upside-down Theban script to me. Theban is used by wiccans on their tools and things, so I'd say that you got a ceremonial blade of some sort. I have no idea of where the script came from originally, although it probably came from some ceremonial magician or alchemist You can search for it on the web, but here's the translation sheet I got off the web. I tried translating it from the script, but I think it'd be easier on the blade itself, rightside up. I think the first frame says something like "Ace of Swords" My guess is that someone got an old sword, and reinscribed it for ceremonial use sometime in the last 50 years. Probably explains why it feels so good in your hand, too. Fearn Attached Images

10th March 2005, 01:12 PM	#8
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	Dear friends, Thanks for all this input, i couldnt imagine this subject to be so interesting! Yannis, globalisation indeed, because i bought this some years ago as part from a lot of 5 weapons from UK. All the others were "ethnographic" and really old, so i assume this was also old and propably belonged to the same owner. I wanted the other ones, i just had to take this also. (So if somebody wants it, i happily will exchange it with an ethnograpchic!, islamic,greek, balkan or turkish) So i do not think it was used in role -playing either, since this should have been for some years in a collection. By the way, yes, the sword is shortened, it is easy to see. So UK, is the home of the sword before coming to Crete. It could have never been a local magical utensil here, because i dont thing anybody would write in a language that substitutes the letters of the English alphabet anyway. It is interesting though that in Crete also, as well in Greece and like in all planet there use to be local magical practises, in which, in the example of Crete, an important role was played by the knife- not sword. A famous example is the practise use by the young "lyrari" (lyra playing musician of our traditional music) that in order to became a great player, he had to go in a crossroad at night so that the "reraides" (mermaids in English?) will teach him to play perfectly. But for return, they would take his mind, so he would become "crazy". The only remedy is to draw a circle with a black handled cretan knife (only with black horn handle, i dont know why...) on the soil arround him. The neraides will be arround him and teach him, but cannot enter the circle! Last edited by eftihis; 10th March 2005 at 04:01 PM. Reason: added something

8th March 2005, 04:25 PM	#2
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	For what such ignorant answer is worth: It does not seem to be Mkhedruli, but I vaguely remember books on alchemistry filled with similar "letters".

8th March 2005, 04:38 PM	#3
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Dunno. I tried zodiac, runes, alchemical and Kabbalah symbology. Not clear match. The closest resemblance is to zodiacal symbols (which are essentially alchemical), but that is only with two or three of those on the blade. They are not Masonic as far as I know. The eye looks more Egyptian/Eye of Ra than the All-Seeing Eye of Freemasonry, which usually is depicted within overlapped square and compass, and with rays eminating from it. Very mysterious. Any idea of the country of origin?

8th March 2005, 05:11 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Here is a link to Theban and other alphabets http://www.omniglot.com/writing/theban.htm Can you see if the writing and the eye are made with an electric tool, to me the curves seems as if they are. Jens

8th March 2005, 05:20 PM	#6
Naga Basuki Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Big old machine shop/foundry/warehouse in Atlanta GA USA Posts: 51	Looks like the "Angelic" writing of Dr. John Dee.

8th March 2005, 09:42 PM	#7
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hmm. I'm pretty sure it's not Dee's Enochian/Angelic script. That can be found here

10th March 2005, 01:56 PM	#9
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Nechesh, You could be right about the ceremonial magic part. As for whether the knife represents air or fire, I think that varies by tradition. I seem to recall that Gardnerian wicca uses air=knife, and Alexandrian wicca uses fire=knife (though I might have that reversed). Other groups follow one, the other, or both. It gets to be an interesting argument if you're in to such things, mostly because it starts with statements like "OF COURSE the knife represents...." "You idiot, who taught you?..." and ends up with "You know, this is confusing. Do what feels comfortable to you." Hi Efithis, Interesting that the Lyrari use a black-handled knife, because that's exactly what Wicca uses, a black-handled knife (athame). One of the major uses of the athame is to cast a circle, and your sword could basically be a big athame for public events (or whatever) if it's not a ceremonial magician's tool. It's curious since as I posted about a month ago, no one knows where the term athame came from, although the black-handled knife is an old magician's tool. Fearn