Africa,Naga,SEAsia?

Tim Simmons · 16th April 2005, 07:45 PM

This is a strange short sword,single edged,horn grip.The spike end on the scabbard makes me think Africa but the rest just throws me off,I not seen anything like it.I lean towards Africa any other ideas?OA length in scabbard 87cm. 56cm out of scabbard, blade 43cm.Tim

wolviex · 16th April 2005, 08:17 PM

I don't know what is it, but my first impression is the remade 20th century military bayonet

Freddy · 16th April 2005, 08:19 PM

Looks like someone tried to copy a bayonet.

Tim Simmons · 16th April 2005, 09:12 PM

Hello,I can see what you say,there is a resemblance.It has not been made from a bayonet .It is a slashing weapon, I have the benefit of being able to handle it and I do not think a bayonet was the inspiration.The hook pommel serves excellently stopping any slipping in the hand.The gaurd is harder to explain.Thanks for looking,lets wait untill Tom has had a chance to look at it.Tim PS it could also have a cutlass inspiration.

Conogre · 16th April 2005, 09:48 PM

I've not seen anything even vaguely similar and I'll be keenly interested to see what developes.
I suspect that it's a custom made piece, but even that is just a wild guess.
The only scabbards I've seen with such a spike are the contemporary "ninja" scabbards.
Very strange.
Mike

Tim Simmons · 16th April 2005, 10:00 PM

On much closer inspection,I think the blade may well have a western origin,not a bayonet as it is too flexable and absolutely no sign of a fuller.The forte does not seem to have been modified,that looks a bit too narrow for a machete blade.The bulge in the grip is western?Tim

RSWORD · 16th April 2005, 10:07 PM

OK, I am going to be of some help but also of no help at all. I have a book in Russian on German weapons. There is a sidearm pictured with basically the same hilt type and blade form but alas I cannot read Russian. However, I can make out the date of circa 1920's-30's. I believe I have also seen similar hooked pommel types made in Germany for export to the S American market. An Argentinian model comes to mind but is elusive from my reference books at the moment. The tip of the scabbard appears to be modified with the addition of the spike. Perhaps a WWII trench sidearm with modified scabbard tip.

Tim Simmons · 16th April 2005, 10:19 PM

Hello Rsword,that is very interesting,I have to say it looks early 20th century and has a frontier feel about it.I now wonder if it could be a sidearm used by German and native forces in the little known fighting in German East Africa during ww1.Thank you very much.Tim PS the spike is very East African.

tom hyle · 16th April 2005, 10:50 PM

My guess would be EuroSouth American, but it is an odd one. It bears a certain resemblance to the Weyersberg kirschbaum modelo Argentino 1909s, to cite a military model that seems of the broad type, though not exactly. Could this be Philipino? The tip on the (wooden!) scabbard reminds me of the climbing spike on the bottom of Luzon's Kayan spears. I had a nice Luzon sword that had a resemblance to this...Is the pommel a bird, with defined eyes and a line across the base of the beak?

Tim Simmons · 20th April 2005, 08:47 PM

Hello.
I think this might well be the source of the blade.This may also strenghten the suggestion that it is from German East Africa.Where a brilliant German Army was unbeaten and only surrendered two weeks after the armistice had been signed.It is the 1898-1905 emergency version sword bayonet, these would have been supplied unfinished, if they got past the Royal Navy.Someone might have a better picture.Tim

Tim Simmons · 22nd April 2005, 11:52 AM

Pictures to compare.

tom hyle · 22nd April 2005, 12:28 PM

Yeah, more similar to the German "butcher" bayonet blade, especially as seen on the 1909 sword and its varients (for instance some German naval cutlasses); the 1909 blade is 15 inches, which is a pretty good match for 43 cm, and this could be one of those type blades, but for the lack of a sharply defined ricassoe (it does look to have a short unsharp bit). Industrial European military blades were/are often produced in quantities and fitted with a variety of hilts, as well as sold naked, and also were often produced in a number of similar versions by different firms, different nations, at different times, and even often display considerable variety within what seems to be a single military conrtract from a single firm (blade length variences of 1/4" to 1/2" are not terribly unusual, in my experience, and I've seen bigger differences, such as WK&C 1909 sword with or without a "granton" type crossways groove at the blade base to grab the sheath-detente spring...).

Tim Simmons · 25th July 2005, 12:30 PM

I have brought this to the surface again because having shown it to a militaria collector who knows about bayonets and the like, says the blade it too flexible even for an emergency bayonet. This blade is just over 4mm at the forte. The spike on the scabbard shown next to East African spear butts seem to indicate an almost certain East African origin. The blade is not British so I am looking at Germany? Can I jog anyones memory? Could you all look in your books on european sidearms one more time? Tim. PS the scabbard is the middle picture.

Bill · 25th July 2005, 04:54 PM

Guess it could have come from a lot of places. The scabbard struck me as coming from the Visayas, Philippines 1930-50. There used to be a lot of small tribal people all over the PI, but are disappearing at a rapid rate. In Negros, I have met some Mugahat people that live in the mountain areas, they come down only to trade forest items they find, & have almost no standard dress or bolos because it seems they trade for everything. The spike might be usefull for someone who is constantly traveling steep grades.

Tim Simmons · 25th July 2005, 06:52 PM

Hi Bill,
Good point. People from the hills in Burma use a cane with a metal spike for the same thing. As mentioned earlier the Philippines had entered my mind. The scabbard is quite long and the whole thing is constructed in such a way that it could function very well as a walking stick especially if you are no taller than 5' 6". An identity on the blade would be really helpful. It does look in real life earlier than 1930s. Is the blade Spanish or American? there is the possibility that the blade might even be Japanese? If the Philippine origin is so. Tim

Freddy · 25th July 2005, 08:35 PM

Tim, if you think it could be German, perhaps it is a 'hirschfanger'. That's a small hunting sword. Is the blade signed in anyway ?

As to it's origin, it could well be East-africa, as Germany had a colony there in the beginning of the 20th century.

Tim Simmons · 25th July 2005, 09:50 PM

Hi Freddy,
Thats the problem, there are no marks, I am just trying to push people who may have an interest in militaria. I personely think it is East African without a doubt, and see an African style and practical function, not just as a weapon but as something showy that would be just right to swagger with. Tim

Tim Simmons · 10th November 2005, 06:24 PM

Looking at some past ebay pictures, I came across this picture from a Belgian seller. As can be seen it is from Ruanda, Buruni or what was Tanganika, I am sure Freddy will say more precisely which area or tribal group. It is funny how answers can come most unexpectedly.

Freddy · 10th November 2005, 06:49 PM

Tim, I think it's Tutsi but I have never seen a similar sword or knife with that kind of metal spike.

RSWORD · 12th November 2005, 02:16 AM

Here is a picture of a very similar sword. Unfortunately, I cannot provide too many specifics because the book is in Russian about German swords. However, I can make out that this sword dates circa 1920-30. Looks like a similar match although the scabbard is different than your example but it has been hypothesized that perhaps it is a refitted scabbard.

Tim Simmons · 12th November 2005, 09:19 AM

Thank you RS, that is very helpful. I think the information gleaned is conclusive and to me most satisfying. The weapon you show has a longer tang with three rivet holes and obviously a version of weapon already in use as Germany lost control of African colonies after 1918. This thread is another shinning example of the fun and knowledge that can be exchanged through an international portal such as here. Thanks to everyone Tim

RhysMichael · 13th November 2005, 03:04 AM

Does anyone else see a resemblance to the grosse messer in this piece ?

Tim Simmons · 13th November 2005, 08:36 PM

look here for interesting facts, www.mgtrust.org/gea.htm

Tim Simmons · 11th August 2007, 09:24 PM

I am sure this is German East Africa.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=009

Tim Simmons · 11th August 2007, 09:55 PM

The more I look at this the more I question my associates opinion that it was not made from a bayonet. I am not familiar with a German WW1 emergency bayonet but this blade is made out of some kind of factory made blade, transformed into a short sword.

Tim Simmons · 22nd October 2008, 09:12 PM

I saved these picture months ago from ebay, it still has some use.

Royston · 23rd October 2008, 09:45 AM

That is an Argentine bolo bayonet 1898-190?

Lew

Lew, I cannot see a stud on the hilt so I think it is probably the Argentinian sidearm rather than the bayonet.

Regards
Royston

Lew · 23rd October 2008, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Royston

That is an Argentine bolo bayonet 1898-190?

Lew

Lew, I cannot see a stud on the hilt so I think it is probably the Argentinian sidearm rather than the bayonet.

Regards
Royston

Royston

You are correct

I only took a quick look at them during my lunch hour and did not notice that

I actualy had one of them years ago they were cheap as dirt to buy but now not so cheap

Lew

apolaki · 22nd October 2008, 09:20 PM

Naga? what's that and what do they're swords/weaponary look like?

Lew · 22nd October 2008, 09:26 PM

That is an Argentine bolo bayonet 1898-190?

Lew

16th April 2005, 07:45 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Africa,Naga,SEAsia? This is a strange short sword,single edged,horn grip.The spike end on the scabbard makes me think Africa but the rest just throws me off,I not seen anything like it.I lean towards Africa any other ideas?OA length in scabbard 87cm. 56cm out of scabbard, blade 43cm.Tim Attached Images

16th April 2005, 08:19 PM	#3
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	? ? ? Looks like someone tried to copy a bayonet.

16th April 2005, 09:12 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Hello,I can see what you say,there is a resemblance.It has not been made from a bayonet .It is a slashing weapon, I have the benefit of being able to handle it and I do not think a bayonet was the inspiration.The hook pommel serves excellently stopping any slipping in the hand.The gaurd is harder to explain.Thanks for looking,lets wait untill Tom has had a chance to look at it.Tim PS it could also have a cutlass inspiration. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 16th April 2005 at 09:23 PM. Reason: thinking after the act

16th April 2005, 10:19 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Hello Rsword,that is very interesting,I have to say it looks early 20th century and has a frontier feel about it.I now wonder if it could be a sidearm used by German and native forces in the little known fighting in German East Africa during ww1.Thank you very much.Tim PS the spike is very East African. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 16th April 2005 at 10:25 PM. Reason: thinking again

20th April 2005, 08:47 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Hello. I think this might well be the source of the blade.This may also strenghten the suggestion that it is from German East Africa.Where a brilliant German Army was unbeaten and only surrendered two weeks after the armistice had been signed.It is the 1898-1905 emergency version sword bayonet, these would have been supplied unfinished, if they got past the Royal Navy.Someone might have a better picture.Tim Attached Images

16th April 2005, 08:17 PM	#2
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	I don't know what is it, but my first impression is the remade 20th century military bayonet

16th April 2005, 09:48 PM	#5
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	I've not seen anything even vaguely similar and I'll be keenly interested to see what developes. I suspect that it's a custom made piece, but even that is just a wild guess. The only scabbards I've seen with such a spike are the contemporary "ninja" scabbards. Very strange. Mike

16th April 2005, 10:00 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	On much closer inspection,I think the blade may well have a western origin,not a bayonet as it is too flexable and absolutely no sign of a fuller.The forte does not seem to have been modified,that looks a bit too narrow for a machete blade.The bulge in the grip is western?Tim

16th April 2005, 10:07 PM	#7
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	OK, I am going to be of some help but also of no help at all. I have a book in Russian on German weapons. There is a sidearm pictured with basically the same hilt type and blade form but alas I cannot read Russian. However, I can make out the date of circa 1920's-30's. I believe I have also seen similar hooked pommel types made in Germany for export to the S American market. An Argentinian model comes to mind but is elusive from my reference books at the moment. The tip of the scabbard appears to be modified with the addition of the spike. Perhaps a WWII trench sidearm with modified scabbard tip.

16th April 2005, 10:50 PM	#9
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	My guess would be EuroSouth American, but it is an odd one. It bears a certain resemblance to the Weyersberg kirschbaum modelo Argentino 1909s, to cite a military model that seems of the broad type, though not exactly. Could this be Philipino? The tip on the (wooden!) scabbard reminds me of the climbing spike on the bottom of Luzon's Kayan spears. I had a nice Luzon sword that had a resemblance to this...Is the pommel a bird, with defined eyes and a line across the base of the beak?

22nd April 2005, 11:52 AM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Pictures to compare. Attached Images

22nd April 2005, 12:28 PM	#12
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Yeah, more similar to the German "butcher" bayonet blade, especially as seen on the 1909 sword and its varients (for instance some German naval cutlasses); the 1909 blade is 15 inches, which is a pretty good match for 43 cm, and this could be one of those type blades, but for the lack of a sharply defined ricassoe (it does look to have a short unsharp bit). Industrial European military blades were/are often produced in quantities and fitted with a variety of hilts, as well as sold naked, and also were often produced in a number of similar versions by different firms, different nations, at different times, and even often display considerable variety within what seems to be a single military conrtract from a single firm (blade length variences of 1/4" to 1/2" are not terribly unusual, in my experience, and I've seen bigger differences, such as WK&C 1909 sword with or without a "granton" type crossways groove at the blade base to grab the sheath-detente spring...).

25th July 2005, 12:30 PM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I have brought this to the surface again because having shown it to a militaria collector who knows about bayonets and the like, says the blade it too flexible even for an emergency bayonet. This blade is just over 4mm at the forte. The spike on the scabbard shown next to East African spear butts seem to indicate an almost certain East African origin. The blade is not British so I am looking at Germany? Can I jog anyones memory? Could you all look in your books on european sidearms one more time? Tim. PS the scabbard is the middle picture. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 25th July 2005 at 07:55 PM. Reason: SPELLING!!!

25th July 2005, 04:54 PM	#14
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Guess it could have come from a lot of places. The scabbard struck me as coming from the Visayas, Philippines 1930-50. There used to be a lot of small tribal people all over the PI, but are disappearing at a rapid rate. In Negros, I have met some Mugahat people that live in the mountain areas, they come down only to trade forest items they find, & have almost no standard dress or bolos because it seems they trade for everything. The spike might be usefull for someone who is constantly traveling steep grades.

25th July 2005, 06:52 PM	#15
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Hi Bill, Good point. People from the hills in Burma use a cane with a metal spike for the same thing. As mentioned earlier the Philippines had entered my mind. The scabbard is quite long and the whole thing is constructed in such a way that it could function very well as a walking stick especially if you are no taller than 5' 6". An identity on the blade would be really helpful. It does look in real life earlier than 1930s. Is the blade Spanish or American? there is the possibility that the blade might even be Japanese? If the Philippine origin is so. Tim Last edited by Tim Simmons; 25th July 2005 at 07:10 PM.

25th July 2005, 08:35 PM	#16
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	Tim, if you think it could be German, perhaps it is a 'hirschfanger'. That's a small hunting sword. Is the blade signed in anyway ? As to it's origin, it could well be East-africa, as Germany had a colony there in the beginning of the 20th century.

25th July 2005, 09:50 PM	#17
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Hi Freddy, Thats the problem, there are no marks, I am just trying to push people who may have an interest in militaria. I personely think it is East African without a doubt, and see an African style and practical function, not just as a weapon but as something showy that would be just right to swagger with. Tim

10th November 2005, 06:24 PM	#18
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Looking at some past ebay pictures, I came across this picture from a Belgian seller. As can be seen it is from Ruanda, Buruni or what was Tanganika, I am sure Freddy will say more precisely which area or tribal group. It is funny how answers can come most unexpectedly. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 10th November 2005 at 06:38 PM.

10th November 2005, 06:49 PM	#19
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	Tim, I think it's Tutsi but I have never seen a similar sword or knife with that kind of metal spike.

12th November 2005, 02:16 AM	#20
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	Here is a picture of a very similar sword. Unfortunately, I cannot provide too many specifics because the book is in Russian about German swords. However, I can make out that this sword dates circa 1920-30. Looks like a similar match although the scabbard is different than your example but it has been hypothesized that perhaps it is a refitted scabbard. Attached Images

12th November 2005, 09:19 AM	#21
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Thank you RS, that is very helpful. I think the information gleaned is conclusive and to me most satisfying. The weapon you show has a longer tang with three rivet holes and obviously a version of weapon already in use as Germany lost control of African colonies after 1918. This thread is another shinning example of the fun and knowledge that can be exchanged through an international portal such as here. Thanks to everyone Tim

13th November 2005, 03:04 AM	#22
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	Does anyone else see a resemblance to the grosse messer in this piece ?

13th November 2005, 08:36 PM	#23
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	look here for interesting facts, www.mgtrust.org/gea.htm

11th August 2007, 09:24 PM	#24
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Another inspiration? I am sure this is German East Africa. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=009

11th August 2007, 09:55 PM	#25
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	The more I look at this the more I question my associates opinion that it was not made from a bayonet. I am not familiar with a German WW1 emergency bayonet but this blade is made out of some kind of factory made blade, transformed into a short sword.

22nd October 2008, 09:12 PM	#26
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I saved these picture months ago from ebay, it still has some use. Attached Images

23rd October 2008, 09:45 AM	#27
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 443	That is an Argentine bolo bayonet 1898-190? Lew Lew, I cannot see a stud on the hilt so I think it is probably the Argentinian sidearm rather than the bayonet. Regards Royston

22nd October 2008, 09:20 PM	#29
apolaki Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 160	Naga? what's that and what do they're swords/weaponary look like?

22nd October 2008, 09:26 PM	#30
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	That is an Argentine bolo bayonet 1898-190? Lew