Five Ball Hilt spadroons

[Jim McDougall]

Some time ago this ivory hilt spadroon was posted here by Alan62, and it brought to mind this distinct type of hilt which was in use in England on officers swords, usually straight sabres like this known as 'spadroons'.

I'd like to open some discussion on the term 'spadroon', the etymology, and would like to learn more on the significance of the 'five' balls or beads, or if there is any beyond simple aesthetics.

Best regards,
Jim

[kisak]

To start with a question then, I quite commonly see swords at auctions which are on the whole quite akin to smallswords, both in hilt style and in overall mass (perhaps slightly heavier there, but that's not exactly saying much here), but with backsword blades. Generally they are infantry officers swords. I have come to think of these as spadroons, at elast when my brain is set to English, but would that really be proper?

Deviating a bit form the five ball hilt here, but perhaps it can help get the ball rolling at least.

[fernando]

Hi Jim,

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... the term 'spadroon', the etymology ...

Isn't it derived from the Genevan Espadron ... coming from the Italian Espadone ... or French Espadon ... or Portuguese Espadão ? .
In current portuguese connotation it means large sword; i wouldn't presently know what it meant in that period and context, though.
Fernando

[Chris Evans]

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Jim,


Isn't it derived from the Genevan Espadron ... coming from the Italian Espadone ... or French Espadon ... or Portuguese Espadão ? .
In current portuguese connotation it means large sword; i wouldn't presently know what it meant in that period and context, though.
Fernando

Hi Fernando,

Angelo called them the "demi-sword", that is, an intermediary between the small sword and the broad sword. I tend to see them as a variation of the transition rapier.

Cheers
Chris

[celtan]

Espadon would be Spanish, literally big sword. In French, a espada would be a epee. A big epee...?

Would a 7-ball Eaglehead be considered a spadroon?

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Jim,


Isn't it derived from the Genevan Espadron ... coming from the Italian Espadone ... or French Espadon ... or Portuguese Espadão ? .
In current portuguese connotation it means large sword; i wouldn't presently know what it meant in that period and context, though.
Fernando

[Chris Evans]

Hi Manolo,

Originally Posted by celtan

Would a 7-ball Eaglehead be considered a spadroon?

This is what Castle had to say on the Spadroon:

The back sword, of which so much is heard in connection with gladiators stage fights, had a basket hilt similar to that of the Claymore, but a very much slenderer blade, deprived of point, like the modern Schlaeger.

A cutting sword of still narrower dimensions, and with a much simpler guard, approximating to that of the small sword, was called "Spadroon" in England; It was in fact, similar to the German cut and thrust rapier of the eighteenth century, which had been called Spadone or Spadrone since the disuse of the regular two handed swords, in the same way as the Claymore retained the old name of a very different weapon. The Germans Spadroon was a regular double edged sword, but any very light back or shearing sword was so called in England. Its play was essentially that of our modern single-stick (CE: Circa 1890), with a free use of the point, and the addition of a few drawing cuts with the false edge.


By way of an explanation, I should add that the Claymore was originally a large Scottish medieval two handed sword and later its name was given to the basket hilted swords that nowadays we associate with that country.

Some have considered the Spadroon as the precursor of the light Italian dueling sabre.

Cheers
Chris

[David]

I hate to be so pedestrian, but there is even a Wiki on this sword form.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spadroon

[celtan]

Thanks Guys, got my answer!

Now, if I only could discover what was the significance of a 7 ball, as compared with a 5 or 3 ball hilt...

Best Regards

Manolo

Originally Posted by David

I hate to be so pedestrian, but there is even a Wiki on this sword form.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spadroon

[fernando]

Hi Manolo,

Originally Posted by fernando

Isn't it derived from the Genevan Espadron ... coming from the Italian Espadone ... or French Espadon ... or Portuguese Espadão ? .
In current portuguese connotation it means large sword; i wouldn't presently know what it meant in that period and context, though.
Fernando

Originally Posted by celtan

Espadon would be Spanish, literally big sword. In French, a espada would be a epee. A big epee...?

I kmow this is not the right tempo, but only now i take notice of your observation on my trying to establish the ethimology of spadroon (a point also raised in this thread by Jim).
The thing is that, besides being spanish, 'espadon' is also french ... meaning a great (two handed) sword; hence 'espadonier' is fencing with a great sword.
Obviously the context of such typologies 'shrunk' a bit for the spadroon attribution .
Best wishes, my amigo.
Feenando

[fernando]

To tell the true, i wouldn't know what a spadroon would be called in Portuguese sword typology.
This picture represents what is called a military sword from the period of King Dom José. I seem to notice that it has some resemblance with the usually illustrated spadroons. A very fine example, with a silver hilt and an ivory grip, with silver filets. The blade is single edged by three quarters and double in the last section, with the legend VIVA EL REY DE PORTUGAL. The text also mentions that, swords of this type, were also used in the (Portuguese) Navy.
Its age is estimated around 1775-1800.
Now, would somebody tell me if this example is far from being what is considered a spadroon?
Fernando

.

[celtan]

The word espadon is still used in Spain, but now it refers to a large digging spade.

Nando, I believe your example fully fits the bill for a spadroon.

Beautiful weapon

Best

M

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

usually straight sabres like this known as 'spadroons'.

I'd like to open some discussion on the term 'spadroon', the etymology, and would like to learn more on the significance of the 'five' balls or beads, or if there is any beyond simple aesthetics.

Best regards,
Jim

Jim, do you call 'sabres' those with straight blades? Wouldn´t they have to have necessarily curved blades as definition? ...just polishing my english...

Espadón, or big, or long espada (espada=sword) is the term used in spanish. I wonder if anglosaxons took that name from the spanish, as well as others, like 'rapier'. And used it, in a slightier different way...just like the term 'rapier'.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Gonzalo,
Good note there! Actually though, in the complete confusion of terminology, these 'spadroons' or whatever you call them actually on occasion it seems I have seen referred to as 'straight sabres' , perhaps in reference to thier manner if use, again the cut and thrust conundrum. I cannot place exactly which places I have seen this, but it was certainly a bit of an anomaly. I know that of course fencing sabres are with straight blade, and the early 20th c. produced swords such as the British M1908, American Patton M1913 and the Spanish M1907 'Puerto Seguro' all with straight blades were often termed 'sabres', obviously contrary to the standard definition, alluding more to issue cavalry swords.
In Arabic, the term sa'if (=sword) can be equally applied to sabres and pallasch type swords.
All the best,
Jim

[Hotspur]

Straight sabres can well turn into a ninja vs pirate debate. Looking far enough back to the origin of the term sabre will eventually go back to an eastern European term simply meaning to cut. What cuts better? Straight or curved? Pirates win that debate I believe even the Wiki for sabre acknowledged my insistence that the root of the word simply meant "to cut".

Neumann seems like a long lost uncle to me and is fond of confusing any issue. A straight sabre is simply a straight cutter (see above) and perhaps a tongue in cheek to keep the beer (and/or popcorn) flowing.

I may be missing my mind more than anything else but I believe the bastardization of the latin to use the term of spadroon may well be more Germanic in thought.

Anyway, having started to go through some lost drive files; I wanted to share another gaper with seven balls. It looks to me to be another optioned Ames casting (or not).

Cheers

Hotspur; I'm pretty sure I have more examples of the 7s as well

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

Straight sabres can well turn into a ninja vs pirate debate. Looking far enough back to the origin of the term sabre will eventually go back to an eastern European term simply meaning to cut. What cuts better? Straight or curved? Pirates win that debate I believe even the Wiki for sabre acknowledged my insistence that the root of the word simply meant "to cut".

Neumann seems like a long lost uncle to me and is fond of confusing any issue. A straight sabre is simply a straight cutter (see above) and perhaps a tongue in cheek to keep the beer (and/or popcorn) flowing.

I may be missing my mind more than anything else but I believe the bastardization of the latin to use the term of spadroon may well be more Germanic in thought.

Anyway, having started to go through some lost drive files; I wanted to share another gaper with seven balls. It looks to me to be another optioned Ames casting (or not).

Cheers

Hotspur; I'm pretty sure I have more examples of the 7s as well

Well said Glen! I think we can all recall the knight vs. ninjas or Samurai or whatever it was debates! which could easily carry on ad infinitum.
Arms and armour terminology as I earlier noted, when trying to examine etymologically, is completely maddening, and typically is fruitless in meaningful discussion of the weapon itself.

My interest in the term spadroon is simply out of extremely long standing curiosity in reviewing the fascinating glossary of such terms, and the 'straight sabre' debate goes with the backsword/broadsword what is a short sword what is a dirk etc. puzzles.

Good suggestion on the Germanic possibility for the 'oon' suffix, which I hope the linguists lurking out there might address.

Neumann is truly an intriguing guy, and I had a wonderful conversation with him at Timonium last March. It is always exciting to see the kind of passion he carries for his field of study, and hearing the stories behind his now venerable reference and its writing.

I'm really enjoying this discussion on these fascinating swords, and hope we can continue learning more on them. Thank you for sharing all these great examples.....and I hope you can get the gremlins outa your computer

All the best,
Jim

[fearn]

More on oon (shortening this up, does this make me a moron?):

Can't vouch for it's total correctness, but here's someone's take on where "oon" came from in English (link)

"The Romance languages use an -one or -on suffix to mean a larger or augmented version of the base word; it's often modified to "-oon" in English. In addition to "trombone", other examples are balloon (big ball), bassoon (deep bass), medallion (large medal), galleon (a ship larger than a galley), cannons and canneloni (big canes or hollow tubes — cannoli are little ones), saloon (a large salle, room), and so on. A squadron is a group of soldiers bigger than a squad. (Squad itself is ex-quadra, a square.) The original meaning of cartoon was a poster-sized image, from Italian carta-one, large paper, and a baboon is etymologically a "big baby". [13Nov08] A macaroon is etymologically a large macaroni, although the taste is now somewhat different. [19Jun09] French bouffer meant to swell or puff up; this led to both buffoon (a clown) and the bouffont hair style. Buffer in the sense of "cushion" or "shock absorber" is also from this root. This has been generalized to anything "in the middle" — buffer state, a computer's buffer memory, and so on.
...
Just to aggravate us, French sometimes used the -on or -oon suffix to mean smaller, not larger. A platoon is French peloton, a very little ball (pellet is already a diminutive), and a pontoon seems to have originally been a "small bridge" or maybe "temporary bridge" — Latin pons. The French word for "small cat" is chaton, which has been borrowed into English as kitten."

Not sure it helps, but don't ya love language?

Best,

F

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

Straight sabres can well turn into a ninja vs pirate debate. Looking far enough back to the origin of the term sabre will eventually go back to an eastern European term simply meaning to cut. What cuts better? Straight or curved? Pirates win that debate I believe even the Wiki for sabre acknowledged my insistence that the root of the word simply meant "to cut".

Neumann seems like a long lost uncle to me and is fond of confusing any issue. A straight sabre is simply a straight cutter (see above) and perhaps a tongue in cheek to keep the beer (and/or popcorn) flowing.

I may be missing my mind more than anything else but I believe the bastardization of the latin to use the term of spadroon may well be more Germanic in thought.

Anyway, having started to go through some lost drive files; I wanted to share another gaper with seven balls. It looks to me to be another optioned Ames casting (or not).

Cheers

Hotspur; I'm pretty sure I have more examples of the 7s as well

Are you saying that the term ´szabla´does not designate a historical type of weapon, but anything that cuts? ...I don´t believe so. And if this term designates specifically a curved sword of certain type, I don´t understand why in english you say there is confussion of terms, since this term passed to several languajes to designate specifically the same type of curved weapon. Wouldn´t it be the confussion elsewere? But I am not questioning anything or discussing anything, just asking to the experts what is the meaning of ´sabre´in english. The sword Puerto Seguro is not a ´sabre´ in spanish, but a sword, since it has a straight blade, and it is called, not very correctly, éspada-sable´(sword-sabre), because it has a straight blade, but the mountings or garnments in the style of a sabre. The correct term for this kind of sword is ´espada de montar´, meaning a mounting or cavalry sword.

It is correct in arab to call ´saif´all those weapons, since ´saif´mens only generically a sword. It is only an occidental cause of confussion, since arbitrarily occidental collectors called ´saif´only to a certain type of sword. Knowing swords in one thing. Knowing the language, is another. I don´t think we can call the viking swords a ´sabre´, just becauser they ´cut´.

[Hotspur]

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