A cup hilted sword rapier for coments

fernando · 15th November 2008, 12:41 AM

This one will be home for Christmas.
Blade 98 cms (38 1/2").Total length 114 cms (45"), which makes it almost two inches "off mark"

, as the allowance was five palms (110 cms=43").
Blade width 20 mm (3/4") which, together with the particularity of the knuckle bow not being fixed to the pommel, makes it fall into the civilian rapier typology.
The huge cup bowl is 16 cms (6.3") wide, which is the largest cup this seller ever sold.
Attributed date around 1700.
Slightly faded inscription on the blade reads in one side VIVA EL REY and on the other DE PORTUGAL. However the (Spanish) seller opines that this sword was made in Spain, for a Portuguese order. I am asking him on what he is based to think so.
Maybe we end up with the Iberian interpretation

Fernando

.

Atlantia · 15th November 2008, 03:27 AM

Its a fabulous sword Fernando,
And a four posted grip like my rapier! Length seems fine to me, great condition!
I'd have placed it a little earlier than 1700! Its certainly another fine beauty for your collection! Have you won the lottery recently? ;-)

Jim McDougall · 15th November 2008, 04:57 AM

Hi Fernando,
I agree with Gene, this is truly a beauty! and I would think of it probably c.1680 to about 1700. It is exactly the kind of weapon I like, more of an arming type sword, and I'm inclined to think these more austere examples were quite possibly military, usually infantry if I am not mistaken. I always look forward to Marc's comments on these

In Norman, the author notes that he is not aware of any military portraiture with the cuphilt being worn, which is primarily the basis for the observation that these were not used by the military.

The wrapped wire grip held by four vertical posts I had always thought were more an 18th century military feature, however in going through the Wallace Collection reference, I found several Spanish cuphilts of c.1650 all with this feature. These were quite ornate, and of course seemed more civilian, which says to me that this four posted feature was not only earlier, mid 17th century, but civilian as well.

In looking at A.V.B. Norman ("The Rapier and Smallsword") this cuphilt form is shown as #100, and as c.1630 to 1700 or later. The pommel on your sword is the same oblate shape seen on this form, but without the prominant capstan. In Norman, #101 is also cuphilt, but with deeper cup, without apparant rompepuntas or rolled edge on the cup and the quillons are without finished terminals nor central bulb on the knucklebow.This form seems to have existed contemporarily in the same periods, and it would seem this example is rather between the two.

I'm curious what indicator tells that this was made in Spain for export to Portugal, other than the inscription, which seems like it could have been made in Portugal as well. It is curious there would be no makers mark, just the inscription.

Fantastic piece Fernando!!! A perfect Christmas gift!!

All the best,
Jim

fernando · 16th November 2008, 12:37 AM

Hi Gene

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Its a fabulous sword Fernando,
And a four posted grip like my rapier! Length seems fine to me, great condition!
I'd have placed it a little earlier than 1700! Its certainly another fine beauty for your collection! ...

Thank you so much for your impressions

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

... Have you won the lottery recently? ;-)

Shhhhhut. My wife doesn't even dream i went into this adventure

.

Fernando

fernando · 16th November 2008, 01:12 AM

Hi Jim, thank you my friend,
As allways, a treatise on the weapon focused on the topic.
Do i well understand your words when you say that Norman is not aware of cuphilts being used by military ? If so, that would be a bit confusing to me

.
I would like to quote a Portuguese specialist, Eduardo Nobre, who mentions is has made a comparison study on several hundred cuphilted swords, both in public as in private collections, having concluded that the fixation of the knuckleguard to the pommel, was more common in military swords. In the case of cuphilted swords with a narrow blade, the so called rapiers, this fixation was rather unvulgar, as even in some cases, resulted from later adaptations.
Also in my humble conclusion, despite this sword has a very plain aspect, its blade length and narrowness, apart from the knucklebow fixation problematic, indicates that this is certainly a civilian sword, a rapier designed for fencing.
I am still expecting the seller to explain his point of view on what concerns this being a Portuguese or a Spanish production sword. If it were made in an earlier period, it could easy be Spanish or in the least be called a Peninsular sword, for what matters. However having been made after the 1640 revolution, and with that kind of nationalist inscription on the balde, it has serious possibilities of being indeed Portuguese. But the seller is surely more qualified in these things than me, so let's see what the man says.
I also wish Marc came around, to drop a line on this subject

.
Fernando

Gonzalo G · 16th November 2008, 06:08 AM

A beauty. It remembers me the style of rapier Marc uses on his avatar. Yes, a portuguese model, but no security about where was it made. Just look at this entrance on the catalog in the Museo of Lázaro Galdiano:

http://www.flg.es/ficha.asp?ID=7414

does it recalls you something? Tough, the hilt is different.
Un abrazo

Gonzalo

Chris Evans · 16th November 2008, 12:34 PM

Hi,

Gonzalo: Excellent detective work.

Fernando: Congratulations, a wonderful piece - I have been looking at that sword since it was put up for sale and was taken by it, especially its truly oversize cup hilt.

Here are three photos of broad bladed swords fitted with cup hilts. I believe that some of these were clearly military, from the 1600s on, towards the late 1700s.

We have to keep in mind, that before the adoption of regulation patterns towards the end of the 18th century, there was relatively little uniformity in side arms in most European armies and that anything could have seen service, whether from choice or necessity, as in the English Civil War when civilian rapiers were pressed into use Also, that many swords were re-hilted over the years and it can be a devilishly difficult task to assign a definite identity to some.

Cheers
Chris
Photos: Sala Antiguedades - Armas Antiguas

16th November 2008, 12:34 PM	#7
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 676	Hi, Gonzalo: Excellent detective work. Fernando: Congratulations, a wonderful piece - I have been looking at that sword since it was put up for sale and was taken by it, especially its truly oversize cup hilt. Here are three photos of broad bladed swords fitted with cup hilts. I believe that some of these were clearly military, from the 1600s on, towards the late 1700s. We have to keep in mind, that before the adoption of regulation patterns towards the end of the 18th century, there was relatively little uniformity in side arms in most European armies and that anything could have seen service, whether from choice or necessity, as in the English Civil War when civilian rapiers were pressed into use Also, that many swords were re-hilted over the years and it can be a devilishly difficult task to assign a definite identity to some. Cheers Chris Photos: Sala Antiguedades - Armas Antiguas Attached Images

15th November 2008, 12:41 AM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	A cup hilted sword rapier for coments This one will be home for Christmas. Blade 98 cms (38 1/2").Total length 114 cms (45"), which makes it almost two inches "off mark" , as the allowance was five palms (110 cms=43"). Blade width 20 mm (3/4") which, together with the particularity of the knuckle bow not being fixed to the pommel, makes it fall into the civilian rapier typology. The huge cup bowl is 16 cms (6.3") wide, which is the largest cup this seller ever sold. Attributed date around 1700. Slightly faded inscription on the blade reads in one side VIVA EL REY and on the other DE PORTUGAL. However the (Spanish) seller opines that this sword was made in Spain, for a Portuguese order. I am asking him on what he is based to think so. Maybe we end up with the Iberian interpretation Fernando . Attached Images

15th November 2008, 03:27 AM	#2
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Its a fabulous sword Fernando, And a four posted grip like my rapier! Length seems fine to me, great condition! I'd have placed it a little earlier than 1700! Its certainly another fine beauty for your collection! Have you won the lottery recently? ;-)

15th November 2008, 04:57 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,942	Hi Fernando, I agree with Gene, this is truly a beauty! and I would think of it probably c.1680 to about 1700. It is exactly the kind of weapon I like, more of an arming type sword, and I'm inclined to think these more austere examples were quite possibly military, usually infantry if I am not mistaken. I always look forward to Marc's comments on these In Norman, the author notes that he is not aware of any military portraiture with the cuphilt being worn, which is primarily the basis for the observation that these were not used by the military. The wrapped wire grip held by four vertical posts I had always thought were more an 18th century military feature, however in going through the Wallace Collection reference, I found several Spanish cuphilts of c.1650 all with this feature. These were quite ornate, and of course seemed more civilian, which says to me that this four posted feature was not only earlier, mid 17th century, but civilian as well. In looking at A.V.B. Norman ("The Rapier and Smallsword") this cuphilt form is shown as #100, and as c.1630 to 1700 or later. The pommel on your sword is the same oblate shape seen on this form, but without the prominant capstan. In Norman, #101 is also cuphilt, but with deeper cup, without apparant rompepuntas or rolled edge on the cup and the quillons are without finished terminals nor central bulb on the knucklebow.This form seems to have existed contemporarily in the same periods, and it would seem this example is rather between the two. I'm curious what indicator tells that this was made in Spain for export to Portugal, other than the inscription, which seems like it could have been made in Portugal as well. It is curious there would be no makers mark, just the inscription. Fantastic piece Fernando!!! A perfect Christmas gift!! All the best, Jim

16th November 2008, 01:12 AM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Jim, thank you my friend, As allways, a treatise on the weapon focused on the topic. Do i well understand your words when you say that Norman is not aware of cuphilts being used by military ? If so, that would be a bit confusing to me . I would like to quote a Portuguese specialist, Eduardo Nobre, who mentions is has made a comparison study on several hundred cuphilted swords, both in public as in private collections, having concluded that the fixation of the knuckleguard to the pommel, was more common in military swords. In the case of cuphilted swords with a narrow blade, the so called rapiers, this fixation was rather unvulgar, as even in some cases, resulted from later adaptations. Also in my humble conclusion, despite this sword has a very plain aspect, its blade length and narrowness, apart from the knucklebow fixation problematic, indicates that this is certainly a civilian sword, a rapier designed for fencing. I am still expecting the seller to explain his point of view on what concerns this being a Portuguese or a Spanish production sword. If it were made in an earlier period, it could easy be Spanish or in the least be called a Peninsular sword, for what matters. However having been made after the 1640 revolution, and with that kind of nationalist inscription on the balde, it has serious possibilities of being indeed Portuguese. But the seller is surely more qualified in these things than me, so let's see what the man says. I also wish Marc came around, to drop a line on this subject . Fernando

16th November 2008, 06:08 AM	#6
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	A beauty. It remembers me the style of rapier Marc uses on his avatar. Yes, a portuguese model, but no security about where was it made. Just look at this entrance on the catalog in the Museo of Lázaro Galdiano: http://www.flg.es/ficha.asp?ID=7414 does it recalls you something? Tough, the hilt is different. Un abrazo Gonzalo