Difference between Raksasa and Dewa?!

erikscollectables · 11th May 2009, 09:35 PM

Althoug I am very fond of these types of hilt I have a very basic question to which I have not found the answer yet.

I see the same type of hilt being called two different names.

Te name Raksasa (the famous flesh eating demon) and Dewa what seems to equal ancestor.

What is the correct name or are this two different types of hilts.

And if different how to spot what is a Dewa and what is a Raksasa.

Here some of my hilts of this/these type(s):

Many thanks for your help with this question.
Photo's more than welcome....

A. G. Maisey · 12th May 2009, 01:02 AM

The word raksasa means a male ogre.

The word dewa means a male deity.

In Javanese and Balinese plastic art an ogre can be distinguished by his fangs, which are often stylized.

These two types of hilt may appear to be the same, but on close examination minute differences will be found, and the study of keris is very much concerned with minute differences.

The association of any keris hilt with a representation of an ancestor is one of a number of hypotheses surrounding keris hilts. It may be that a keris hilt which can be identified as neither raksasa nor dewa, but has a human-like appearance, could have been intended as a representation of an ancestor.

Another hypothesis that ties the squatting figure style keris hilt to an ancestor representation is that the ancestor is represented in the position used for pit burial.

A further hypothesis is that the ancestor is in a sense being deified and is being represented as a God, having become one with that deity upon death. Similar type of thought pattern as we see in the candification of rulers in Jawa.

Apart from hilts which can be slotted into a dewa classification, a raksasa classification, or a humanoid classification, there are other hilts which fit none of these classifications, but are representations of wayang figures, or spirit entities.

As to what is "correct" terminology for all and any of these hilts, I personally prefer to describe them as "figural". I prefer to use English language terms for description where this is possible. The terms used in keris and other weapon description are very often just everyday words in the original language, not keris specific words, and as such have an English language equivalent, since I am using English, why should I not use a correct English word where that will fit?

In Bali those hilts which resemble miniature statues and can be either of an ogre type, or a diety type, are referred to as "togogan". A "togog" is a statue.

The keris literate people whom I know in Jawa or Bali would not normally refer to any of these hilts as "raksasa", or "dewa", they normally refer to them by name, if known ,or simply call them "togog" (Bali), or "patung" (Jawa"), or sometimes if the figure has a vaguely wayang look, it might get called a "nyamba", even though it is not strictly a nyamba representation.

I feel that perhaps the two tags of dewa and raksasa that collectors tend to apply to these hilt types are a western affectation.

erikscollectables · 12th May 2009, 08:45 PM

Dear Alan,

Many thanks for this reply, very interesting. I like the figurative hilts a lot!

Could you go a bit further into the details of the Raksasa, how to recognise this specific type?

I like the discussions on the Jawa Demam very much, my other favorite type of hilt.

Regards, Erik

David · 12th May 2009, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erikscollectables

Could you go a bit further into the details of the Raksasa, how to recognise this specific type?

Erik, what do you mean by "this specific type"? As Alan has pointed out, the people he knows in Jawa and Bali are not likely to use the term raksasa. I think that there are probably many hilts that western collectors label as such that perhaps where not intended to represent a raksasa. For instance i often see many of the vegetal figural hilts categorized as such when i am not convinced that they are really meant to be ogres or demons. Sometimes we see obvious wayang figures called raksasa. Often i think our obsession to categorize leads us to sometimes force a square peg into a round hole.

erikscollectables · 12th May 2009, 10:43 PM

Rephrase of the question.
How do I recognize a figural hilt that reperesents a male ogre?
What makes a male ogre a male ogre in other words.

I have some hilts that I always named Raksasa until now.
My question now is if there is any hilt among them that actually would qualify as a male ogre.

Tomorrow (daylight is gone here now) I will add some pictures.

They have a number of similair characteristics like:
-squatting position
-Tumpal throne
-snake around the neck
-long hair on the back, curling
-position of hands and fingers

What kind of figure would this be or are there more details needed to determine this?

Regards, Erik

David · 12th May 2009, 11:19 PM

While i am not sure it would be absolutely necessary i think that fangs, as mentioned before, are a good sign of ogre-ness.

Bulging eyes are also a good indicator.

11th May 2009, 09:35 PM	#1
erikscollectables Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 318	Difference between Raksasa and Dewa?! Althoug I am very fond of these types of hilt I have a very basic question to which I have not found the answer yet. I see the same type of hilt being called two different names. Te name Raksasa (the famous flesh eating demon) and Dewa what seems to equal ancestor. What is the correct name or are this two different types of hilts. And if different how to spot what is a Dewa and what is a Raksasa. Here some of my hilts of this/these type(s): Many thanks for your help with this question. Photo's more than welcome.... Attached Images

12th May 2009, 08:45 PM	#3
erikscollectables Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 318	Interesting! Dear Alan, Many thanks for this reply, very interesting. I like the figurative hilts a lot! Could you go a bit further into the details of the Raksasa, how to recognise this specific type? I like the discussions on the Jawa Demam very much, my other favorite type of hilt. Regards, Erik

12th May 2009, 01:02 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	The word raksasa means a male ogre. The word dewa means a male deity. In Javanese and Balinese plastic art an ogre can be distinguished by his fangs, which are often stylized. These two types of hilt may appear to be the same, but on close examination minute differences will be found, and the study of keris is very much concerned with minute differences. The association of any keris hilt with a representation of an ancestor is one of a number of hypotheses surrounding keris hilts. It may be that a keris hilt which can be identified as neither raksasa nor dewa, but has a human-like appearance, could have been intended as a representation of an ancestor. Another hypothesis that ties the squatting figure style keris hilt to an ancestor representation is that the ancestor is represented in the position used for pit burial. A further hypothesis is that the ancestor is in a sense being deified and is being represented as a God, having become one with that deity upon death. Similar type of thought pattern as we see in the candification of rulers in Jawa. Apart from hilts which can be slotted into a dewa classification, a raksasa classification, or a humanoid classification, there are other hilts which fit none of these classifications, but are representations of wayang figures, or spirit entities. As to what is "correct" terminology for all and any of these hilts, I personally prefer to describe them as "figural". I prefer to use English language terms for description where this is possible. The terms used in keris and other weapon description are very often just everyday words in the original language, not keris specific words, and as such have an English language equivalent, since I am using English, why should I not use a correct English word where that will fit? In Bali those hilts which resemble miniature statues and can be either of an ogre type, or a diety type, are referred to as "togogan". A "togog" is a statue. The keris literate people whom I know in Jawa or Bali would not normally refer to any of these hilts as "raksasa", or "dewa", they normally refer to them by name, if known ,or simply call them "togog" (Bali), or "patung" (Jawa"), or sometimes if the figure has a vaguely wayang look, it might get called a "nyamba", even though it is not strictly a nyamba representation. I feel that perhaps the two tags of dewa and raksasa that collectors tend to apply to these hilt types are a western affectation.

12th May 2009, 10:43 PM	#5
erikscollectables Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 318	Rephrase of the question. How do I recognize a figural hilt that reperesents a male ogre? What makes a male ogre a male ogre in other words. I have some hilts that I always named Raksasa until now. My question now is if there is any hilt among them that actually would qualify as a male ogre. Tomorrow (daylight is gone here now) I will add some pictures. They have a number of similair characteristics like: -squatting position -Tumpal throne -snake around the neck -long hair on the back, curling -position of hands and fingers What kind of figure would this be or are there more details needed to determine this? Regards, Erik

12th May 2009, 11:19 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,124	While i am not sure it would be absolutely necessary i think that fangs, as mentioned before, are a good sign of ogre-ness. Bulging eyes are also a good indicator.