Gunfighters and notches in grips

Jim McDougall · 23rd July 2009, 04:54 AM

From time to time it seems the subject has come up, particularly in ethnographic weapons, of victories or kill counts in bravado, marked on the weapon itself. This has been suggested on the mandau of Borneo, and others but cannot recall specifics, and it seems a number of other instances.

In romanticized literature on the Wild West, one of the most familiar myths is that gunfighters notched the grip on thier guns for thier victims in count. I often wondered if there was any basis for this idea, which does not seem to have had any verifiable truth to it, but for a few remote exceptions which seemed to be based on the dime novels myths.

It is said that Wyatt Earp, being interviewed by a reporter, when asked about notching guns, he was so outraged he threw the guy out. He fumed, only 'tinhorns' would do such a thing, and that a gunfighter would never do so. It seems that most of the 'stories' about the true gunfighters were embellished and fabricated by enthusiastic writers and fans.

None of the guns provenanced to any of the famed gunfighters has any such notches in the grips, nor are there any established accounts of any known gunfighter or pistolero using this type of adornment. It would seem that in most cases, they did not feel particular joy, pride or bravado concerning the death of another, despite embellished accounts written much after these events.

But there may have been exceptions, and anger and rage driven incidents such as during the Civil War, the Missouri 'bushwhackers' "Bloody Bill" Anderson, is said to have had a cord he knotted each time he killed a yankee, enraged for the brutal killing of his family and others....accounts say he had 53 knots in that cord.

In early frontier days, it is said that tally guns with notches carved in them were mounted on the wall in forts, and that frontiersmen recorded taken scalps by notching thier muskets. Perhaps these instances of 'record keeping' or tallies became a dramatic vehicle in the embellished tales of the dime novel writers and became part of the 'gunfighters myth'.

Just wanted to see if out there in readers world or among the members, anyone might have some references to instances where gunfighters are known to have notched grips on guns, or any other cases such as military combat where this might have been done.

On a closing note, it is said that in the 1920's, Bat Masterson was found to have bought a Colt SAA and carved notches in the grip, to sell to a persistant enthusiast, compelled by the myth well notched into western lore.

All best regards,
Jim

fearn · 23rd July 2009, 06:15 AM

No good examples, but anyone who is in LA should check out the Autry Museum. If memory serves, it has a large collection of western guns on display, and it would be a good place to check on the story.

Best,

F

Jim McDougall · 23rd July 2009, 02:06 PM

Hi Fearn,
Thanks very much for that excellent suggestion! I always very much appreciate the way you always step in to help out, whether you add a simple and astute observation or more substantial text, you're always there, and keepin' it real. Means a lot.

I have always wanted to visit that museum, and perhaps one of these days, the 'bus' will be in that neck of the woods. Right now moving through Texas and headed for Arizona. Whenever I head back toward the southwest, my interest in the wild west kicks up! Along the way I have at times seen some of the gunfighters guns....one of Billy the Kids guns was actually on loan at one RV park! Of course, as I have seen noted, if Billy ever owned even half of the guns claimed to be his...he wouldnt be able to get on a horse

The key thing is that I have yet to see notches on any of the guns that are soundly provenanced to any of the well known gunfighters, though I did find some reference to what sounds like a cliche' in one case. The guy's name was Frank Eaton with the rather corny sounding sobriquet, 'Pistol Pete', and had 11 notches in his Peacemaker's grips. It seems he came later, and most likely adopted the 'tinhorn' tradition from tales he had heard from the sensationalized accounts about gunfighters. The name Pistol Pete sounds like something out of the old 1950's westerns.

All the best, and thanks again,
Jim

Berkley · 23rd July 2009, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Right now moving through Texas and headed for Arizona.
Jim

In that case, you should consider a stop at the Texas Ranger Museum in Waco. Excellent collection of Old West firearms, originally the private collection of the late Gaines de Graffenried, one of the great early gun collectors.

aerosick · 23rd July 2009, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

No good examples, but anyone who is in LA should check out the Autry Museum. If memory serves, it has a large collection of western guns on display, and it would be a good place to check on the story.

Best,

F

I've been to the Gene Autry Museum several times and did not see any notched revolvers. Take a look at some of the collection.

Billy

Jim McDougall · 23rd July 2009, 06:14 PM

Great input guys!!!
Kisak, it absolutely does seem that the lore of arms and armour is wrought with all manner of these myths and legends. I've always thought the fun is to find out the truth behind them, always fascinating.

Berkeley, thanks so much for mentioning the Texas Rangers Museum, which is absolutely overwhelming. I think my favorite story sums it up;
There was a huge riot that broke out in one small Texas town, fighting, shooting and complete chaos. In the midst of the melee, the sheriff looked in disbelief at the single Texas Ranger that ride up in answer to his call for help....the sheriff exclaimed, "they only sent one Ranger!!??".
The Ranger calmly replied, "..theres only one riot aint there?".

The whole museum was great, the incredible cannon of a handgun that made Dirty Harry's Magnum look like a popgun was the Walker Colt. ..huge!!

Hi Billy, (gotta love that Aerosick handle

40 yrs with the airlines, well known believe me)!!
Thanks for the link to the Gene Autry, and welcome to the forums. I've never been to the museum there but hope to get there one day.

Thanks again guys!! All the best,
Jim

VANDOO · 23rd July 2009, 08:31 PM

I WILL CHECK AROUND IN THE MUSEUMS NEARBY AS SEVERAL HAVE A LARGE COLLECTION OF FIREARMS. THE BEST FOR THAT LOCALLY ARE 1. THE J.M.DAVIS GUN MUSEUM, 2 THE WILL RODGERS MUSEUM AND 3. WOLLAROC MUSEUM. PERHAPS I WILL RUN ACROSS SOME INFORMATION THERE AS I HAVE CONNECTIONS WITH THOSE THREE.

AS TO KEEPING A TALLY OF ENEMYS KILLED IT IS AN OLD TRADITION PREDATING THE WRITTEN LANGUAGE. HEADHUNTING , SCALP LOCKS, BONE TOOLS, WEAPONS AND DRINKING CUPS WERE ALL SORT OF A TALLY OF ONES VICTIMS AS WELL AS A MARK OF THAT WARRIORS STATUS AND ABILITYS.

IN MODERN TIMES ONE HAS ONLY TO LOOK AT THE FIGHTER PLANES AND BOMBERS AS WELL AS SUBMARINES AND SHIPS TO FIND A TALLY OF ENEMYS VANQUISHED. THE IDEA OF AN ACE IS LIKE THE IDEA OF A NUMBER ONE HEADHUNTER AS THE NUMBER OF KILLS DETERMINES THE STATUS AND SKILL OF THE WARRIOR.

AND WE CALL OURSELVES CIVILIZED BELOW THE THIN PATINA THE HUMAN RACE IS STILL MOSTLY TRIBAL DEEP DOWN AND THE CIVILIZED PART IS ONLY SKIN DEEP.

Pukka Bundook · 25th July 2009, 04:11 PM

Hello Jim,

Sorry I have not been around much. Work seems to get in the way!

Re. notches, I had an old book on gunfighters etc called "triggerometry" if I remember right! Must have been written in the 40's or before.

It had a chapter on John Westley-Hardin, called; "40 notches" from his most likely dime-store career, and supposedly 40 kills.
That's about as close as I can come with any actual evidence!!

There is only one gun I can think of off-hand with notches, in this case filed into the side of the trigger-guard, and this was from an earlier time, and was a full-stock plains rifle owned at one time by Joe Meek.
If I remeber right, it has an inscription on it in German, saying it was "for the defence of (German) Immigrants in the US (Can't remember if a state was mentioned, it May have been Utah)
Wether it got it's notches at the hands of the original Teutonic custodian, or at Joe's hands I can't say. Neither do I know wether the notches stood for deer,...... or hostile Indians.
Anyway Jim, That's all I can contribute. A gun with notches, yes, but that's all.
Now, I Do have an old ww1 era kukri with 2 notches, but that's different, and about as questionable!!

Best wishes,

Richard.

kisak · 23rd July 2009, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It is said that Wyatt Earp, being interviewed by a reporter, when asked about notching guns, he was so outraged he threw the guy out.

Perhaps an idea which came form the same cultural soil as many of the "creative" ideas we still have floating abound concerning old arms an armour? If it was around in the days of Wyatt Earp then we're not too far away in time at least.

23rd July 2009, 04:54 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Gunfighters and notches in grips From time to time it seems the subject has come up, particularly in ethnographic weapons, of victories or kill counts in bravado, marked on the weapon itself. This has been suggested on the mandau of Borneo, and others but cannot recall specifics, and it seems a number of other instances. In romanticized literature on the Wild West, one of the most familiar myths is that gunfighters notched the grip on thier guns for thier victims in count. I often wondered if there was any basis for this idea, which does not seem to have had any verifiable truth to it, but for a few remote exceptions which seemed to be based on the dime novels myths. It is said that Wyatt Earp, being interviewed by a reporter, when asked about notching guns, he was so outraged he threw the guy out. He fumed, only 'tinhorns' would do such a thing, and that a gunfighter would never do so. It seems that most of the 'stories' about the true gunfighters were embellished and fabricated by enthusiastic writers and fans. None of the guns provenanced to any of the famed gunfighters has any such notches in the grips, nor are there any established accounts of any known gunfighter or pistolero using this type of adornment. It would seem that in most cases, they did not feel particular joy, pride or bravado concerning the death of another, despite embellished accounts written much after these events. But there may have been exceptions, and anger and rage driven incidents such as during the Civil War, the Missouri 'bushwhackers' "Bloody Bill" Anderson, is said to have had a cord he knotted each time he killed a yankee, enraged for the brutal killing of his family and others....accounts say he had 53 knots in that cord. In early frontier days, it is said that tally guns with notches carved in them were mounted on the wall in forts, and that frontiersmen recorded taken scalps by notching thier muskets. Perhaps these instances of 'record keeping' or tallies became a dramatic vehicle in the embellished tales of the dime novel writers and became part of the 'gunfighters myth'. Just wanted to see if out there in readers world or among the members, anyone might have some references to instances where gunfighters are known to have notched grips on guns, or any other cases such as military combat where this might have been done. On a closing note, it is said that in the 1920's, Bat Masterson was found to have bought a Colt SAA and carved notches in the grip, to sell to a persistant enthusiast, compelled by the myth well notched into western lore. All best regards, Jim

23rd July 2009, 06:15 AM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	No good examples, but anyone who is in LA should check out the Autry Museum. If memory serves, it has a large collection of western guns on display, and it would be a good place to check on the story. Best, F

23rd July 2009, 02:06 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Hi Fearn, Thanks very much for that excellent suggestion! I always very much appreciate the way you always step in to help out, whether you add a simple and astute observation or more substantial text, you're always there, and keepin' it real. Means a lot. I have always wanted to visit that museum, and perhaps one of these days, the 'bus' will be in that neck of the woods. Right now moving through Texas and headed for Arizona. Whenever I head back toward the southwest, my interest in the wild west kicks up! Along the way I have at times seen some of the gunfighters guns....one of Billy the Kids guns was actually on loan at one RV park! Of course, as I have seen noted, if Billy ever owned even half of the guns claimed to be his...he wouldnt be able to get on a horse The key thing is that I have yet to see notches on any of the guns that are soundly provenanced to any of the well known gunfighters, though I did find some reference to what sounds like a cliche' in one case. The guy's name was Frank Eaton with the rather corny sounding sobriquet, 'Pistol Pete', and had 11 notches in his Peacemaker's grips. It seems he came later, and most likely adopted the 'tinhorn' tradition from tales he had heard from the sensationalized accounts about gunfighters. The name Pistol Pete sounds like something out of the old 1950's westerns. All the best, and thanks again, Jim

23rd July 2009, 06:14 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Great input guys!!! Kisak, it absolutely does seem that the lore of arms and armour is wrought with all manner of these myths and legends. I've always thought the fun is to find out the truth behind them, always fascinating. Berkeley, thanks so much for mentioning the Texas Rangers Museum, which is absolutely overwhelming. I think my favorite story sums it up; There was a huge riot that broke out in one small Texas town, fighting, shooting and complete chaos. In the midst of the melee, the sheriff looked in disbelief at the single Texas Ranger that ride up in answer to his call for help....the sheriff exclaimed, "they only sent one Ranger!!??". The Ranger calmly replied, "..theres only one riot aint there?". The whole museum was great, the incredible cannon of a handgun that made Dirty Harry's Magnum look like a popgun was the Walker Colt. ..huge!! Hi Billy, (gotta love that Aerosick handle 40 yrs with the airlines, well known believe me)!! Thanks for the link to the Gene Autry, and welcome to the forums. I've never been to the museum there but hope to get there one day. Thanks again guys!! All the best, Jim

23rd July 2009, 08:31 PM	#7
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I WILL CHECK AROUND IN THE MUSEUMS NEARBY AS SEVERAL HAVE A LARGE COLLECTION OF FIREARMS. THE BEST FOR THAT LOCALLY ARE 1. THE J.M.DAVIS GUN MUSEUM, 2 THE WILL RODGERS MUSEUM AND 3. WOLLAROC MUSEUM. PERHAPS I WILL RUN ACROSS SOME INFORMATION THERE AS I HAVE CONNECTIONS WITH THOSE THREE. AS TO KEEPING A TALLY OF ENEMYS KILLED IT IS AN OLD TRADITION PREDATING THE WRITTEN LANGUAGE. HEADHUNTING , SCALP LOCKS, BONE TOOLS, WEAPONS AND DRINKING CUPS WERE ALL SORT OF A TALLY OF ONES VICTIMS AS WELL AS A MARK OF THAT WARRIORS STATUS AND ABILITYS. IN MODERN TIMES ONE HAS ONLY TO LOOK AT THE FIGHTER PLANES AND BOMBERS AS WELL AS SUBMARINES AND SHIPS TO FIND A TALLY OF ENEMYS VANQUISHED. THE IDEA OF AN ACE IS LIKE THE IDEA OF A NUMBER ONE HEADHUNTER AS THE NUMBER OF KILLS DETERMINES THE STATUS AND SKILL OF THE WARRIOR. AND WE CALL OURSELVES CIVILIZED BELOW THE THIN PATINA THE HUMAN RACE IS STILL MOSTLY TRIBAL DEEP DOWN AND THE CIVILIZED PART IS ONLY SKIN DEEP.

25th July 2009, 04:11 PM	#8
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Hello Jim, Sorry I have not been around much. Work seems to get in the way! Re. notches, I had an old book on gunfighters etc called "triggerometry" if I remember right! Must have been written in the 40's or before. It had a chapter on John Westley-Hardin, called; "40 notches" from his most likely dime-store career, and supposedly 40 kills. That's about as close as I can come with any actual evidence!! There is only one gun I can think of off-hand with notches, in this case filed into the side of the trigger-guard, and this was from an earlier time, and was a full-stock plains rifle owned at one time by Joe Meek. If I remeber right, it has an inscription on it in German, saying it was "for the defence of (German) Immigrants in the US (Can't remember if a state was mentioned, it May have been Utah) Wether it got it's notches at the hands of the original Teutonic custodian, or at Joe's hands I can't say. Neither do I know wether the notches stood for deer,...... or hostile Indians. Anyway Jim, That's all I can contribute. A gun with notches, yes, but that's all. Now, I Do have an old ww1 era kukri with 2 notches, but that's different, and about as questionable!! Best wishes, Richard.