Origin of this dagger?

Loedjoe · 30th October 2012, 08:49 AM

Any ideas on the place of origin of this dagger? It is 37.5 cm long, the tip broken and the blade filed down to give it a new point. Brass wire on the hilt perhaps a replacement?

kai · 30th October 2012, 10:08 AM

Nomen est omen?

How about a luju/loedjoe Alas variant?

Seriously, this seems very tough to pin down. I'm not even positive it is Sumatran/Indonesian.

Please post more close-ups of the hilt. Which kind of ivory?

How does the back of the blade look like? Maximum thickness?

What is the round depression towards the tip? (The other irregularities are forging flaws?)

I'd be inclined to etch the blade for obtaining more info, too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loedjoe

Brass wire on the hilt perhaps a replacement?

The wire looks like an attempt to stop the splitting of the ivory - the marks seem to suggest that there were originally 2 bands of silver? (Ferrule is silver, correct?)

Regards,
Kai

Sajen · 30th October 2012, 08:43 PM

Also a nice and unusual dagger. Blade shape is similar to a badik, agree with Kai that etching the blade can give some hints. Agree also that there have been bands from silver at the handle. Ivory look like dugong IMHO.

Regards,

Detlef

T. Koch · 31st October 2012, 08:25 AM

Very nice piece - thanks for showing it! I have no input as to origin or age, so I'll sit back, watch and learn.

Regarding the material for the hilt, judging from the pics, I am not sure that it is ivory - the pores and nature of the cracks indicate some kind of bone. When bone gets very old and handled a lot, it will sometimes obtain a beautiful warm glow like we see here.

If you'd like, try taking a picture from the pommel-end. A pic from this angle might tell more. What is the length of the hilt, 12-14 cm?

Regarding the possibility of dugong ivory, I still haven't seen an example of this material used for a weapon hilt, and will remain highly skeptical of it's stated use in this way, until presented with evidence of the contrary.

Best wishes, - Thor

Sajen · 31st October 2012, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T. Koch

Very nice piece - thanks for showing it! I have no input as to origin or age, so I'll sit back, watch and learn.

Regarding the material for the hilt, judging from the pics, I am not sure that it is ivory - the pores and nature of the cracks indicate some kind of bone. When bone gets very old and handled a lot, it will sometimes obtain a beautiful warm glow like we see here.

If you'd like, try taking a picture from the pommel-end. A pic from this angle might tell more. What is the length of the hilt, 12-14 cm?

Regarding the possibility of dugong ivory, I still haven't seen an example of this material used for a weapon hilt, and will remain highly skeptical of it's stated use in this way, until presented with evidence of the contrary.

Best wishes, - Thor

Hello Thor,

I am nearly sure that it isn't some sort of bone since there is no porosity in top of the handle.

Still vote for dugong, I have some keris handle from this material. A other possibility is whale tooth. I have to admit that I have problems to differ between this both materials. I have send pictures from the handle in question to a friend of mine who is firm by this materials. Tomorrow I will have answer and will post his opinion at this place.

And soon as I find the time I take pictures from dugong keris handles and post them as well.

Best regards,

Detlef

David · 31st October 2012, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Still vote for dugong, I have some keris handle from this material. A other possibility is whale tooth. I have to admit that I have problems to differ between this both materials. I have send pictures from the handle in question to a friend of mine who is firm by this materials. Tomorrow I will have answer and will post his opinion at this place.

And soon as I find the time I take pictures from dugong keris handles and post them as well.

Detlef, i am curious how you know that the material on your keris hilts is actually dugong and not some other source. AFAIK there are no really large pieces of dugong ivory so i understand why Thor is skeptical.
I do agree that this looks more like ivory than bone to me also. How large is just the hilt of this piece?

Loedjoe · 31st October 2012, 09:51 AM

Thank you all for your comments.

A luju Alas variant would be great, as Sumatra is my main interest, but like Kai I am not sure it is Sumatran/Indonesian - I was so intrigued by the hilt that I could not resist buying it. I had assumed that the hilt was elephant ivory - I shall try to take, and post, more photographs of it in the next few days, which may help identify it for sure. It is 12 cm long, to the bottom of the ferrule (which is pale brass, rather thick and crude, perhaps a later replacement).
The back of the blade is flat, maximum thickness 4.5 mm at the base. The oval depression near the tip, the tadpole-shaped one near the middle, and the two thin ones near the base (just visible in the photo.) are all identical on the other side of the blade - perhaps the oval one, at least, once had a metal inlay?
As for etching - same comment as in the reply to the comments to my other query, lack of knowedge, and nervousness about causing damage.

Loedjoe · 31st October 2012, 02:07 PM

Here are a few more photos. of the hilt

T. Koch · 31st October 2012, 07:14 PM

Wow, those are some impressive pics! As good as it gets without having the piece in hand.

The concentric age cracks visible on the end of the pommel do look mighty like those of elephant ivory.

Try having a really good look at the pommel end in good clear daylight. Does the material have overlapping angular lines like these?:

If so, it's elephant ivory. Those are called Schreger's Lines and only ivory of the proboscidians - elephants, mammoths, mastodons, etc. - show these. If you can't see anything like this, my vote is back on some kind of bone.

Super nice piece regardless! The figural hilt reminds me of the lion/Makara hilt of the Sri Lankan Kastane as discussed over in this very awesome thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14998 - however, I'd be surprised if that was anything but mere coincidence.

Congratulations on the score and may you enjoy it in good health!

Best wishes, - Thor

Loedjoe · 10th November 2012, 01:06 PM

Thank you very much to all who have commented on this - it has been most interesting and helpful.

There are no black dots in the black lines, so I think we can safely exclude hippo ivory as the materail of the hilt.

ASH · 11th November 2012, 02:46 AM

Not sure on the knife's origin, but the hilts material I would say looks just like sperm whale tooth ivory. I collect mainly Polynesian art and see a fair amount of this material. Just my two cents
Great knife.

David · 11th November 2012, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASH

Not sure on the knife's origin, but the hilts material I would say looks just like sperm whale tooth ivory. I collect mainly Polynesian art and see a fair amount of this material. Just my two cents
Great knife.

This make much more sense to me. The larger back teeth of the sperm whale especially would provide both the length and mass necessary to carve a reasonably sized hilt. Here is a large scrimshaw tooth as well as a nice keris hilt purported to have been made from a sperm whale tooth. I suspect that this is the material most often used where claims of dugong have been made.

30th October 2012, 08:49 AM	#1
Loedjoe Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Oxford (UK) Posts: 96	Origin of this dagger? Any ideas on the place of origin of this dagger? It is 37.5 cm long, the tip broken and the blade filed down to give it a new point. Brass wire on the hilt perhaps a replacement? Attached Images

31st October 2012, 02:07 PM	#8
Loedjoe Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Oxford (UK) Posts: 96	Here are a few more photos. of the hilt Attached Images

30th October 2012, 08:43 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Also a nice and unusual dagger. Blade shape is similar to a badik, agree with Kai that etching the blade can give some hints. Agree also that there have been bands from silver at the handle. Ivory look like dugong IMHO. Regards, Detlef

31st October 2012, 08:25 AM	#4
T. Koch Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Mother North Posts: 189	Very nice piece - thanks for showing it! I have no input as to origin or age, so I'll sit back, watch and learn. Regarding the material for the hilt, judging from the pics, I am not sure that it is ivory - the pores and nature of the cracks indicate some kind of bone. When bone gets very old and handled a lot, it will sometimes obtain a beautiful warm glow like we see here. If you'd like, try taking a picture from the pommel-end. A pic from this angle might tell more. What is the length of the hilt, 12-14 cm? Regarding the possibility of dugong ivory, I still haven't seen an example of this material used for a weapon hilt, and will remain highly skeptical of it's stated use in this way, until presented with evidence of the contrary. Best wishes, - Thor

31st October 2012, 09:51 AM	#7
Loedjoe Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Oxford (UK) Posts: 96	Thank you all for your comments. A luju Alas variant would be great, as Sumatra is my main interest, but like Kai I am not sure it is Sumatran/Indonesian - I was so intrigued by the hilt that I could not resist buying it. I had assumed that the hilt was elephant ivory - I shall try to take, and post, more photographs of it in the next few days, which may help identify it for sure. It is 12 cm long, to the bottom of the ferrule (which is pale brass, rather thick and crude, perhaps a later replacement). The back of the blade is flat, maximum thickness 4.5 mm at the base. The oval depression near the tip, the tadpole-shaped one near the middle, and the two thin ones near the base (just visible in the photo.) are all identical on the other side of the blade - perhaps the oval one, at least, once had a metal inlay? As for etching - same comment as in the reply to the comments to my other query, lack of knowedge, and nervousness about causing damage.

31st October 2012, 07:14 PM	#9
T. Koch Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Mother North Posts: 189	Wow, those are some impressive pics! As good as it gets without having the piece in hand. The concentric age cracks visible on the end of the pommel do look mighty like those of elephant ivory. Try having a really good look at the pommel end in good clear daylight. Does the material have overlapping angular lines like these?: If so, it's elephant ivory. Those are called Schreger's Lines and only ivory of the proboscidians - elephants, mammoths, mastodons, etc. - show these. If you can't see anything like this, my vote is back on some kind of bone. Super nice piece regardless! The figural hilt reminds me of the lion/Makara hilt of the Sri Lankan Kastane as discussed over in this very awesome thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14998 - however, I'd be surprised if that was anything but mere coincidence. Congratulations on the score and may you enjoy it in good health! Best wishes, - Thor

10th November 2012, 01:06 PM	#10
Loedjoe Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Oxford (UK) Posts: 96	Thank you very much to all who have commented on this - it has been most interesting and helpful. There are no black dots in the black lines, so I think we can safely exclude hippo ivory as the materail of the hilt.

11th November 2012, 02:46 AM	#11
ASH Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 13	Not sure on the knife's origin, but the hilts material I would say looks just like sperm whale tooth ivory. I collect mainly Polynesian art and see a fair amount of this material. Just my two cents Great knife.