Is it madness or are we all stinking rich?

[ariel]

Look at the prices and tell me what happened with the market: does it mean that our collections suddenly increased 3-5 fold in value?
http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/...150119247&rd=1
http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/...150119208&rd=1
http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/...150119195&rd=1
http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/...150119187&rd=1
http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/...150119167&rd=1

[Tim Simmons]

The market is not omnipotent. Research is so important. The first link is testament to the markets potential misguidance all be it quite an interesting item. One has to think of an objects value in a much more broad spectrum of market venues and thier potential customers grounding in the items on sale.

[kronckew]

i think tim means it is madness AND we are all stinkin' rich

[Dajak]

What is going on that top piece s stay in collections
and there is only medium to les stuff become standard
and sell s for good (to high) price s .



Ben

[Bill M]

YO! Preparing eBay ads for a few Moro and other pieces!

Stinkingly mad rich sounds good to me!

[Dajak]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

The market is not omnipotent. Research is so important. The first link is testament to the markets potential misguidance all be it quite an interesting item. One has to think of an objects value in a much more broad spectrum of market venues and thier potential customers grounding in the items on sale.

The problem is only if people that don t now much about what quality and low end stuff is keep on buying ,
the prices go up .
It is easy with the stuff no buyers no market .

And people do this and buy from this people .
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4987

Ben

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by Dajak

The problem is only if people that don t now much about what quality and low end stuff is keep on buying ,
the prices go up .
It is easy with the stuff no buyers no market .

And people do this and buy from this people .
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4987

Ben

Good point Ben. Do you have an answer?

I got on a vendetta several years ago contacting people who were buying fake Chinese swords. I soon realized that most people really did not care if it was fake or not. They bought the artificially patinated sword. Sometimes cleaned off the carefully applied rust, sometimes didn't and just hung it on the wall.

They were satisfied, even happy with their purchases. They did not buy another sword. One was enough. $500-$600 was fine for a wall decoration. Many did not belive they were fake, that they had actually bought a rare Ming dynasty sword.

As far as I can tell, there are only a very few people who do care (us) if these weapons are fake, composite or hybrids.

Add to this the fact that there are a small finite number of authentic pieces. And there are many village craftsmen producing weapons in the same manner their ancestors made them. Are these authentic?

I have asked experts why they don't publish books about how to spot fakes. They have told me that the fake makers would then adjust their craft to make pieces that would be even harder to distinguish from the authentic pieces.

Even museums make huge mistakes. This has been pointed out on this forum many times.

And collectors who have studied in certain areas can easily be fooled in other areas by fakes. I have been studying Japanese swords, an unbelievably complex area of microscopic differences making huge differences in value. These collectors have incredibly keen powers of observation.

People with quarter of a million dollar Japanese swords with fake tourist Balinese keris and Chinese armor, fooled by fakers.

So.

Hopefully any collecting venue will have increases in prices. I like it that my collection is worth more. A few years back a fairly good Moro kris was $200. Now you may pay $500-$600.

This is not an announcement, but I plan to put some of my lower end pieces on eBay, I am finding better bargains with dealers and want to upgrade my collection. I would also like for some other people to enjoy pieces that I do not regularly handle.

And as the reach of the Internet expands, especially eBay, prices do go up. Where prices increase, there will be people making fakes.

I am buying from dealers and collectors who I either have a relationship with -- have sterling reputations or who I can visit and hold the pieces before buying.

Like everyone else here, I have bought un-authentic pieces on eBay. Some were so bad that I threw them away. I have also found some real sleepers.

But the bottom line is that I am the one I have to please. I appreciate this forum and the people who post here. I have learned a lot and continue to learn each day.

[rand]

The deluge of fakes is exactly why objects with provinece retain a greater value than their unpunlished counterparts. When items reach a high value copies/fakes begin to be made and sold to the unsuspecting Buyer.

As values get even higher the modern forgeries get more sophisticated to the point of buying old farm implements from the same time period as a sword and then forging a blade from that steel. High end European rapiers are the perfect example of this happening, even astute dealers are wary. For that reason items with provinence to a European collection prior to 1920 carry a much greater value.

The Islamic arms have been fairly free of this simply because there is just too much work on making a copy, also the fact that the steels are until recently immune form duplication.

The Indonesian arms seem to be in the early stages of this process. Pommels are especially easy target for a forger looking to inflate value. Thats why an arena such as this forum is of such great benefit.

Personally I do not understand why we cannot talk about any object, even if it is offered for sale. In reality everything is available for the right price. When I see an obvious fake offered its makes me feel sorry for the possible Buyer who made end their collecting after one bad purchase.

Hence the value of an astute Dealer, they are an asset to the collecting community.

Dry Roads,

rand

[Dajak]

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

Good point Ben. Do you have an answer?



Add to this the fact that there are a small finite number of authentic pieces. And there are many village craftsmen producing weapons in the same manner their ancestors made them. Are these authentic?

These are not authentic if they make them the same as long time before because the simple answer these are not from the time period that they orginally made in.
repro weapons are these.

Originally Posted by rand

The deluge of fakes is exactly why objects with provinece retain a greater value than their unpunlished counterparts. When items reach a high value copies/fakes begin to be made and sold to the unsuspecting Buyer.

As values get even higher the modern forgeries get more sophisticated to the point of buying old farm implements from the same time period as a sword and then forging a blade from that steel. High end European rapiers are the perfect example of this happening, even astute dealers are wary. For that reason items with provinence to a European collection prior to 1920 carry a much greater value.

The Islamic arms have been fairly free of this simply because there is just too much work on making a copy, also the fact that the steels are until recently immune form duplication.

The Indonesian arms seem to be in the early stages of this process. Pommels are especially easy target for a forger looking to inflate value. Thats why an arena such as this forum is of such great benefit.

Personally I do not understand why we cannot talk about any object, even if it is offered for sale. In reality everything is available for the right price. When I see an obvious fake offered its makes me feel sorry for the possible Buyer who made end their collecting after one bad purchase.

Hence the value of an astute Dealer, they are an asset to the collecting community.

Dry Roads,

rand

It is not alowed to discus what is on ebay here .
But If they change this rule a lot off forum members would
be better informed what they buy on ebay.
In my opinion It would be better if they can change the rule but I don t now If they wanna do it.

Sometimes provonance found be later ,
I did buy this container a few years ago

By one that I consider the best Tribal Art dealer That I know (my Oldman Jimpul came from him ) very good trust full man I can buy from him whit out seeing the object .

A few weeks ago I did get this article in my Hands
it shows that it was collected between 1898 -1899



Ben

[Andrew]

Rand and Ben:

The prohibition against discussing active auctions is one born of self-preservation for this forum. Two staff members (myself and Mark) are US lawyers, and all-too familiar with the litigious nature of our society.

As you've noted, dicussion of active auctions can affect the outcome of those auctions, for good or for bad, depending on one's perspective. This interference can give rise to a number of legal causes of action, including Tortious Interference and Defamation.

For instance, a seller may have a sale or reputation ruined. Even if the result was justified, a lawsuit or claim can be brought, and defending even frivolous claims is prohibitively expensive and annoying. So much so that it could conceivably shut down a small operation like this.

Andrew

[CourseEight]

Originally Posted by Dajak

These are not authentic if they make them the same as long time before because the simple answer these are not from the time period that they orginally made in.
repro weapons are these.

I have to respectfully disagree with this argument as stated, though perhaps not the actual meaning. I personally think the most important point in defining "authenticity" is simply what purpose the creator of a given object had when he created it. If a village craftsman is creating a certain type of object for a member of his people, in the manner it has traditionally been made, to be used as his people have traditionally used it, I would not consider this to be a reproduction.

Obviously with certain types of objects, specifically weapons created strictly for combat, it is not possible to make a truly authentic item. However even today, weapons used for hunting, for parade/festival, for talismanic purposes, or for day-to-day utility can be made to serve the same purpose they did 100 years ago. I doubt very much the people using them consider them to be reproductions, just not as old. This is not to say that these are in any way as valuable as older examples, which for the most part it is assumed have seen more authentic usage. But if a weapon was specifically created for some gentleman during his visit to some village 150 years ago, it would have seen no more usage than one created today specifically for me. What does this say about the autenticity even of objects in old collections? I don't know...

I haven't been collecting that long, so the above is worth what it's worth!

--Radleigh